No Input Mixing Board (NIMB) Resources, Techniques, Artists, Etc...

[dapatcho]

Hi all making a thread to pool together and consolidate approaches and techniques for NIMB stuff. I myself have been performing with it at a handful of gigs and would like to work towards more drone and rhythmic stuff that you can find out there but am unsure how to get there.

I came into NIMB stuff seeing a local performer in Kingston Ontario do it along side some tape looping works, and subsequently found that Bandcamp article on Toshimaru Nakamura. Additionally, many people will point to Sarah Belle Reid on Youtube who provides some overview as well as additionally videos on NIMB. More recently I found Phonets/Kilo Llama who goes into more detail with what you can do using sends, mutes, and channel inserts.

Ultimately I still have not found much specific info regarding how I can make more rhythmic and drone works with NIMB, since the tendency of the "instrument" skews more readily towards harsh tones and especially the board I have on hand personally. What sort of gear/pedals are being used? Where in and along the chain are they being used?

Additionally, if you use No Input techniques and want to share your works or tricks please feel free to share them here!

[The Mysterious Creep]

I've done a bit of no-input myself (using a matrix mixer and just plugging distortion pedals into themselves, not a proper sound-guy-style mixer, so your mileage may vary), so here's what I can offer:

Mixer feedback is going to get you very pure tones - by its nature it's passing noise through filtration until it's whittled down to just the frequencies that are most forward in your signal chain, pretty much giving you a very crude oscillator. Drones come very naturally to mixer feedback, the primary thing you want to do is not disturb it. Get those pure tones from your feedback and then put effects outside the loop, maybe a tuner if you care about tuning it to specific notes, but let the loop itself just be the amplification and EQ within the mixer - using the volume and EQ control should give you a wide range of pitches. Within the loop, reverb tends to smear away harsh edges if you need some effects to tame what's going on.

For rhythmic sounds, you want to muck up those pure tones. The least gear-intensive way to introduce rhythmic effects is by mixing a low-frequency feedback loop into your higher-pitched stable loop. I did this a lot with the matrix mixer, which just had volume knobs - make one loop with the volume knob turned just to the level of feeding back and getting a nice squeal, then another loop with the volume cranked until it stopped being a consistent tone and became low-frequency stuttering (higher the volume, lower the pitch with that thing), then mix that loop into the squealing higher-pitched loop and now you've got a rhythmically chopping feedback tone. If your mixer has multiple inputs and outputs, you can do that by just keeping two separate loops (not crossing the inputs and outputs) and then blending one over to the other. If you can't do that, delay and tremolo will both introduce rhythm into your loops (delay subtly, as it tends to wash away into the feedback spiral since it itself is a feedback-based effect, while Tremolo will give you nice hard rhythmic chopping).

[SS1535]

I've done a bit of no-input myself (using a matrix mixer and just plugging distortion pedals into themselves, not a proper sound-guy-style mixer, so your mileage may vary), so here's what I can offer:

Mixer feedback is going to get you very pure tones - by its nature it's passing noise through filtration until it's whittled down to just the frequencies that are most forward in your signal chain, pretty much giving you a very crude oscillator. Drones come very naturally to mixer feedback, the primary thing you want to do is not disturb it. Get those pure tones from your feedback and then put effects outside the loop, maybe a tuner if you care about tuning it to specific notes, but let the loop itself just be the amplification and EQ within the mixer - using the volume and EQ control should give you a wide range of pitches. Within the loop, reverb tends to smear away harsh edges if you need some effects to tame what's going on.

For rhythmic sounds, you want to muck up those pure tones. The least gear-intensive way to introduce rhythmic effects is by mixing a low-frequency feedback loop into your higher-pitched stable loop. I did this a lot with the matrix mixer, which just had volume knobs - make one loop with the volume knob turned just to the level of feeding back and getting a nice squeal, then another loop with the volume cranked until it stopped being a consistent tone and became low-frequency stuttering (higher the volume, lower the pitch with that thing), then mix that loop into the squealing higher-pitched loop and now you've got a rhythmically chopping feedback tone. If your mixer has multiple inputs and outputs, you can do that by just keeping two separate loops (not crossing the inputs and outputs) and then blending one over to the other. If you can't do that, delay and tremolo will both introduce rhythm into your loops (delay subtly, as it tends to wash away into the feedback spiral since it itself is a feedback-based effect, while Tremolo will give you nice hard rhythmic chopping).

What matrix mixer are you using? I want to get one at some point.

[The Mysterious Creep]

What matrix mixer are you using? I want to get one at some point.

Pladask Elektrisk Matrise. Pretty basic 4x4 mixer, uses a standard 9volt supply and has a polarity switch for each output that can be used for neat tricks. Used heavily on my album Metalhead on my Bandcamp, the bleep-bloop jam at the end of the track "Mt. Cocaine" is all mixer feedback with a few pedals (mostly distortions and a Digitech Bass Synth wah) and flipping the polarity switches rhythmically to produce the changes. They go for $310 new, but you'll have to get on Pladask's mailing list and watch for restocks because they go fast.

[SS1535]

What matrix mixer are you using? I want to get one at some point.

Pladask Elektrisk Matrise. Pretty basic 4x4 mixer, uses a standard 9volt supply and has a polarity switch for each output that can be used for neat tricks. Used heavily on my album Metalhead on my Bandcamp, the bleep-bloop jam at the end of the track "Mt. Cocaine" is all mixer feedback with a few pedals (mostly distortions and a Digitech Bass Synth wah) and flipping the polarity switches rhythmically to produce the changes. They go for $310 new, but you'll have to get on Pladask's mailing list and watch for restocks because they go fast.

They look like they have a few interesting ones on their site. The use of knobs is interesting too, as the limited research on matrix mixers that I have done have all been peg-based or otherwise digital recreations of that system (I guess the ones you linked also work in a similar way).

This is the dream one for me: https://www.ericasynths.lv/shop/standal ... rix-mixer/

[Atrophist]

What matrix mixer are you using? I want to get one at some point.

For a more affordable option with less bells and whistles, consider this one:

https://handmadeelectronicinstruments.c ... rix-mixer/

Everything this guy makes is top-notch is terms of build quality annd reliability.

[SS1535]

What matrix mixer are you using? I want to get one at some point.

For a more affordable option with less bells and whistles, consider this one:

https://handmadeelectronicinstruments.c ... rix-mixer/

Everything this guy makes is top-notch is terms of build quality annd reliability.

This looks nice as well, especially the inclusion of the passive power supply.

[confuzzled]

I've been using the maker hart mixer with a multi-pronged 2.5 mm splitter. its a shitty little white mixer that is the size of an old electro harmonix pedal. Surprisingly, it is very controllable.

[Tinnitustimulus]

I only used radio shack dj mixers for NIMB but have stopped for the most part of being tired of the sound. Rhythmic patterns really only happen with the gain is unreasonably high and bass turned up to point that it becomes a clicky pulse thing. Headphone in mixers tend to be the loudest, and if theres monitor and eq capabilities you can certainly subvert it harder. Some Pepper isn't the harshest project but has the most extensive rhythmic NIMB rig I have ever seen.

[dapatcho]

I only used radio shack dj mixers for NIMB but have stopped for the most part of being tired of the sound. Rhythmic patterns really only happen with the gain is unreasonably high and bass turned up to point that it becomes a clicky pulse thing. Headphone in mixers tend to be the loudest, and if theres monitor and eq capabilities you can certainly subvert it harder. Some Pepper isn't the harshest project but has the most extensive rhythmic NIMB rig I have ever seen.

This was very very neat thank you for the links, the last one in particular was great for how few "components" there were

[dapatcho]

Does anyone have experience using a 404 or similar sampler/mangler to receive and send in between loops? Something I would like to try but do not have access to the gear. Being able to capture and recall sections during a performance would help flesh out the soundscaping a little I would think.

[Cementimental]

My very early very crude no-input mixing album from 2002, made when I barely even had a mixer to speak of. Done using small camcorder audio mixers, or in one track by just plugging the minidisk output into the input and fiddling with the levels without being able to even hear what I was recording :D

[DIODE SNORTER]

Does anyone have experience using a 404 or similar sampler/mangler to receive and send in between loops? Something I would like to try but do not have access to the gear. Being able to capture and recall sections during a performance would help flesh out the soundscaping a little I would think.

I've never used a 404, however I can confirm that running an fx/feedback loop through a loop pedal (e.g. Boss RC-3, Ditto X2, et al.) is totally viable. Granted, you need a mixer or something else with enough "oomph" to do the heavy lifting, but once that's settled you can absolutely loop "phrases" or snippets of the feedback loop the pedal is in: you can loop loops!

It makes sense:there's no logical reason why it shouldn't be possible, it's just surprising because most people wouldn't even think to try that.

What's really neat is, if you have the Ditto X2, you can record & playback a portion of the feedback loop, then reverse and/or change its playback speed. Makes for some fun pseudo-synth-like sounds! I'm sure there's further ways to exploit this technique that merit further exploration.



On a similar note, I also found recently that you can technically run a feedback loop through the Boss DD-3's "HOLD" function (and I would wager any other digital delay pedals with similar functionality as well). It takes a bit to get the feedback loop started: just keep hammering on the footswitch and you'll hear it creeping in between presses. You don't even need a mixer: I built a passive feedback looper that has no preamp or EQ knobs and it still works. It's not a very practical technique but it's interesting; it's like taking a series of snapshots in the dark, only to realize that the ghostly figure you can't otherwise see only gets closer and closer in the frame of each subsequent photograph...

[Bubble-Congeries]

^ I use the DD-3 a lot in a similar way. A lot of pedals work slightly differently, but similar things are possible with other sampling delays also.

I modified my DD-3 with a toggle to lock the Hold mode and a momentary button option to break the hold and record more audio in the buffer. This makes it a lot more flexible and user-friendly.

[DIODE SNORTER]

I modified my DD-3 with a toggle to lock the Hold mode and a momentary button option to break the hold and record more audio in the buffer. This makes it a lot more flexible and user-friendly.

Any chance you took or could take some gut shots? That sounds sick as hell!

[Bubble-Congeries]

Possibly. It's a crude, messy rats nest inside the box I mounted the pedal on. I really should clean it up one day. I'll try to get some serviceable photos in the morning when I get home, though.

FWIW, mine is the MIT pink label square chip iteration... Everything I've added is accessible from the underside of the PCB. I've never messed with later revisions which supposedly have a brighter sound (which I sometimes wish mine did when switching between live and sampled audio, because the contrast is sometimes jarring in a *non-cool* sort of way)...

I've been considering getting one of the "B" revision models that came after mine to see if I can still mod it as easily and get a more consistent sound. I'll let you know if I do. (I think there's at least 4-5 revisions of the PCB, and the "B" version is technically the 3rd and has a lot more SMT stuff, though it still looks easy enough to solder connections).

[Bubble-Congeries]

Oh, BTW, I should've stated that the main mods are super basic... Just a toggle that connects to the bypass switch to replicate manually depressing the switch in Hold mode, with a momentary normally-closed push button between the stomp switch and one lug of the toggle switch to break the Hold without having to ride the toggle switch.

I also wired a switch to defeat the dry output the same way plugging a dummy cable into the Direct Output would by simply connecting the points on that jack to a toggle, which closes the circuit the same way inserting the dummy cable would. This allows for easy full-wet output and muting/stutter effects via the Wet/Dry knob.

These are all really straight-forward connections, and I suspect most revisions of the board have ample connection points for installing them.

I also put in a busted (it technically still works, but it's damaged and fucky in the best sort of way), over-value pot that really stretches the buffer into silty mess and allows for a kind of a wonky, chaotic tape stop-start effects when you exceed the delay chip's range, which causes it to cut the signal and do other weird things, plus a toggle switch to take the pot in and out, but that's unrelated. It may be be harder to find a way to graft in a larger value pot on other versions of the board for something similar and I'm not sure how it'd sound on later revisions, though I'd love to find out.

[Bubble-Congeries]

So, the inside is worse than I remembered, and I was using an assortment of cannibalized parts and mismatched scrap wire spliced together, which I was very likely stripping with my canine teeth at the time, so make of it what you will...

20240906_070855.jpg (1.4 KiB) Viewed 432 times

20240906_070751.jpg (52.03 KiB) Viewed 432 times

20240906_070800.jpg (50.16 KiB) Viewed 432 times

I guess, if nothing else, there's a lesson in here somewhere about how approachable this mod is if "even I" could do it... and it still works!

[Bubble-Congeries]

PS: Not sure why the first attatchment blacked out on upload, but its just a photo of the exterior. Not really a crucial detail.

[Zalhietzli]

Does anyone have experience using a 404 or similar sampler/mangler to receive and send in between loops? Something I would like to try but do not have access to the gear. Being able to capture and recall sections during a performance would help flesh out the soundscaping a little I would think.

I've been using tape loops for a while to capture feedback sounds. What is interesting is that the sound is naturally mangled/distorted when put to tape. So when you play it back against the feedback loop, it already sounds a bit different and not just "same sound but louder". It add some extra chaos to it.

[DIODE SNORTER]

Thanks!

[dapatcho]

I've never used a 404, however I can confirm that running an fx/feedback loop through a loop pedal (e.g. Boss RC-3, Ditto X2, et al.) is totally viable. Granted, you need a mixer or something else with enough "oomph" to do the heavy lifting, but once that's settled you can absolutely loop "phrases" or snippets of the feedback loop the pedal is in: you can loop loops!

It makes sense:there's no logical reason why it shouldn't be possible, it's just surprising because most people wouldn't even think to try that.

What's really neat is, if you have the Ditto X2, you can record & playback a portion of the feedback loop, then reverse and/or change its playback speed. Makes for some fun pseudo-synth-like sounds! I'm sure there's further ways to exploit this technique that merit further exploration.



On a similar note, I also found recently that you can technically run a feedback loop through the Boss DD-3's "HOLD" function (and I would wager any other digital delay pedals with similar functionality as well). It takes a bit to get the feedback loop started: just keep hammering on the footswitch and you'll hear it creeping in between presses. You don't even need a mixer: I built a passive feedback looper that has no preamp or EQ knobs and it still works. It's not a very practical technique but it's interesting; it's like taking a series of snapshots in the dark, only to realize that the ghostly figure you can't otherwise see only gets closer and closer in the frame of each subsequent photograph...

Last time I tried with a Ditto X4 it was sort of short circuiting/circumventing things and generally just sounded unhappy and unreceptive. Maybe I was just routing things incorrectly? I will give it another go and report back, but yes I agree it should work but it didn't seem to.

[dapatcho]

Also would love to try and experiment with different FXs/pedals without having to buy/borrow them myself. Would there be a way to do that digitally? I could probably use Reaper and grab some FX plugins and stick them at the end of the chain, but actually simulating pedals within the chains is probably not feasible?

[Bubble-Congeries]

Also would love to try and experiment with different FXs/pedals without having to buy/borrow them myself. Would there be a way to do that digitally? I could probably use Reaper and grab some FX plugins and stick them at the end of the chain, but actually simulating pedals within the chains is probably not feasible?

Software aside, at minimum, you'd need a computer with mic and line/headphone I/O (Most computers should have them, though maybe they're being phased out of newer laptops? In which case, there's lots of cheapo I/O audio interface dongles that provide them, as well as more full-featured audio interfaces at a variety of price points), but it would be possible to route the audio into the laptop through something like AudioMulch and then back out to your mixer. You can even make purely digital FB loops directly inside AudioMulch with zero external hardware.

The main issues you'll experience are most likely going to be down to buffer latency/delay, but it's definitely possible!