Production Techniques

Primary section for noise and noise-adjacent discussion.
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W.K.
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Production Techniques

Post by W.K. »

We already have the Gear thread but I thought maybe it's a good idea to have a different one more specifically for production techniques. Obviously for discussion but also for asking questions.

Topics like:
- What is your recording process? Do you record digital? On tape? First on tape then transfer to digital?
- Recording devices, audio interfaces DAWs, stems, recording busses.
- Do you add effects after your initial recording? Chopping up recorded sounds?
- Recording mono vs. stereo. Panning. EQing. Using filters and gates for eliminating unwanted sounds (or using Ozone or other tools).
- Composition.
- Unique ways to record a sound. Recording in public spaces? Adding field records to your composition? Recording from amps?
- Questions like "how do I get this specific sound" or "how do I warm up my sound" and "how do I get my sound fuller" but also "should I recorded with aux or do I need a dedicated audio interface?" (answer is never use aux).
- Things to avoid.

Obviously never spill out all your secrets but a lil' help won't hurt.

Discuss!
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by housepig »

ooooo, good topic!

For Juhyo, we generally record jams as two stereo pairs (one from each of our mixers) to four tracks of a Zoom H6. We'll take the files and load them into a DAW (for years was Tracktion, then moved to Ardour for a few years before recently coming back to Tracktion on Ubuntu), listen through, note what we liked & what we didn't, cut out the stuff we don't like and start a rough organization of what we like.

From there, we'll frequently re-record individual elements, add layers, add panning, eq, filters (usually simple high- or low-pass), effects (generally impulse reverbs) and keep tweaking until we get to a point where we're satisfied. That may include shelving it for anywhere from a couple of months to years, and then going back over it with fresh ears.

a fair bit of what we use comes from field recordings that both of us make, together or independently. we've both got Zoom recorders that we catch sounds on. One field trip we made a few years ago, I took some hardware store spring clamps and crazy glued contact mics to them (hat tip to Savage Aural Hotbed, where I saw them using a similar setup live), and contact-mic'd highway underpass structural beams, light-rail train tracks and the like. the sound of an approaching light-rail train is fucking horrifying through a contact mic.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by JuntaCadre »

I’m a true idiot when it comes to this shit and have very little grasp on it, I wish I had a little more of a clue. I record from my line-out of my mixer, using a 1/8th inch straight into my computer’s audio-input jack. Record everything, layer everything and etc in audacity. Very little “after effects” other than things like fade in and out. More recently i’ve learned a little about Reaper, so sometimes I’ll take the separate vocal track and export it from audacity into reaper, add some light things like delay, and then throw it back into audacity. But yeah, all Herukrat and Junta Cadre stuff were basically straight from the mixer into audacity, and then edited in there to layer, cut, balance, etc.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Zalhietzli »

JuntaCadre wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:07 pm I’m a true idiot when it comes to this shit and have very little grasp on it, I wish I had a little more of a clue. I record from my line-out of my mixer, using a 1/8th inch straight into my computer’s audio-input jack. Record everything, layer everything and etc in audacity. Very little “after effects” other than things like fade in and out. More recently i’ve learned a little about Reaper, so sometimes I’ll take the separate vocal track and export it from audacity into reaper, add some light things like delay, and then throw it back into audacity. But yeah, all Herukrat and Junta Cadre stuff were basically straight from the mixer into audacity, and then edited in there to layer, cut, balance, etc.
How do you people make music with Audacity and not want to kill yourself ? I get that limitations breed creativity and all that, but jesus.
Oh, and I am not attacking or mocking you in any way, or suggesting you should change your method. I am just genuinely surprised and a bit admirative.

Anyway, my own recording process is boring really. I just record everything straight into my daw (Reaper) with an audio interface, no amps or mics. I use tape a lot as a sound source, but never as a recording tool. I prefer the reliability of the digital tool to faithfully record my shit. Then, depending on how ambitious I feel, I either move to the "mixing" part quickly (if I judge the material good enough as is), or start carefully editing it. Moving parts around, layering, dubbing new parts, adding effects (EQ mostly), panning, lots of volume adjustements, until I am satisfied. In between that there will be lots of listens to judge what works and what doesn't, how the record should flow, etc.
As for composition, my "rules" are : don't make it too long (I hate 20mn tracks that could have been half the length) and don't have the track just steadily grow into a climax/loud part, that's dumb. The last rule is the harder to follow, but most rewarding when you manage to shake things up.
When I am happy with the composition and volume/pan/EQ pre-mix, I hand the real mix to someone else, as I fucking HATE mixing and I think it's always interesting to have someone else input into the process.

Also, when I record a cool sound/noise/drone and it has a chaotic/unpredictable element to it, I try to record it for about twice as long as needed. That way, I can chop the recording in half and hard pan each part left/right for interesting stereo effect.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Capers »

Always to tape, either one of my 4-tracks or into a tapedeck. Sometimes live, sometimes with an overdub afterwards. Usually that’s all I do. If it’s for someone else to release, I transfer it to the computer and chop off the excess stumps at the beginning and the end in Reaper, crank up the volume a bit, minor eq adjustment if needed. Done.

I have tried layering, cutting and editing in the computer, but it sounded like crap. I don’t know how people make that work, and I envy them.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Zalhietzli »

Capers wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:19 pm I have tried layering, cutting and editing in the computer, but it sounded like crap. I don’t know how people make that work, and I envy them.
Tbh it sounds like crap when I do it most of the times. Dunno why, I guess you lose the juice from the original recording, all the intuitiveness and happy mistakes. But sometimes you hit a good stride and the edits make sense.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Mattias Gustafsson »

Always recording to 4 track tape recorders. Mono.
Someday I will try to learn to recording to a computer but I have have that in mind since 2006. But I’m to uninterested to learn such things. Cause I really love the mix of
tape/computer recordings.
I have three 4 tracks of the same model plus another I bought cheap when 4 tracks was cheap. So I hope they will last as long I am doing music. But someday…
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by WCN »

Zalhietzli wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:27 pm
Capers wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:19 pm in the computer, but it sounded like crap.
sounds like crap
This might not be exactly what's causing your guys' issues, but I wanted to post this as advice in a number of other related threads, but this seems like best place to do it: buy an audio interface with good analog to digital conversion. Doesn't have to be crazy high end, but decent. Those Scarlett Focusrites are solid sounding and cost around €100, less used. I've used shitty audio interfaces in the early days, and could never figure out why the sound was so thin and "digital" sounding when transferring from analog to digital. Also used the mic/line input on the laptop, which definitely has an ugly digital bite and loses a lot of detail. Finally figuring it out and using some decent analog to digital conversion was a game changer for getting the proper rich sound into the computer, and being able to work with it well there.

I use Protools for multitracking, editing, and mixing, which I don't absolutely love, but it works for me and I'm used to it. Bought a license many years ago and still use a really out of date bugged out version. Would like to transition to something more streamlined at some point, but not in any rush. As far as I see it, most DAWs do pretty much the same thing, so finding one that works for you is the key.

I would recommend people take the step and learn a multitrack DAW though. I think there's a lot of unwarranted bias against them. They're just a recording device that gives you more options and power in how to arrange, sculpt, and tweak your sounds. It's up to you how far you want to go with the tools available there, but having them at your disposal is great.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Zalhietzli »

Thanks for the input but in my case I don't think it's an audio interface problem. The one I bought maybe 8 years ago was recommended to me by an audio engineer. I can't remember the brand and the dog is sleeping on my lap so I'm not going to check, haha
Edit 2 : presonus audiobox 44vsl

What I meant with sounding like crap is that editing or overdubbing a recording can sometimes break the flow, the impact, the honesty it carries as it is. You try to make it too perfect and it sucks. It's not always the case of course, but you gotta find the right balance.

Edit : that said I agree with all you said about investing in good recording material and learning to use a daw. For anyone interested, feel free to hit me up if you need help with Reaper. Really easy to get started on the most basic use.
Last edited by Zalhietzli on Fri Feb 11, 2022 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by MiseryEngine »

I use the cheapest presonus audio box and the free presonus studio one software it came with. I run the main outs from my 12 channel mackie mixer into that and I have always had extremely high quality audio with zero issues. I’m absolutely not a DAW guy by any measure but also I’m not a 4 track person either. I program my synths and sequencers, mix at the board, and record a single stereo track into the DAW every single time. No plugins or anything. If I need effects I use pedals. I just don’t bother with my DAW and tape machines I feel like for me it only slows me down and I need the simplest process possible. Just hit record. Also with this process I basically ensure that everything you’ve heard on a recording of mine could be played live. I don’t overdub or cut things together or anything at all. I’m not against multitracking or overdubs but any means I just prefer to play my stuff into the recording device and I don’t stress about adding elements. It’s much easier to get in my own way if I start messing around with that stuff.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Knifedoutofexistence »

JuntaCadre wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:07 pm I’m a true idiot when it comes to this shit and have very little grasp on it, I wish I had a little more of a clue. I record from my line-out of my mixer, using a 1/8th inch straight into my computer’s audio-input jack. Record everything, layer everything and etc in audacity. Very little “after effects” other than things like fade in and out. More recently i’ve learned a little about Reaper, so sometimes I’ll take the separate vocal track and export it from audacity into reaper, add some light things like delay, and then throw it back into audacity. But yeah, all Herukrat and Junta Cadre stuff were basically straight from the mixer into audacity, and then edited in there to layer, cut, balance, etc.
Nice to see I’m not the only one who goes straight from mixer into Audacity! A true idiot here too.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by violentgrief »

I pretty much just use my DAW as I would a 4 track back in the day. I layer tracks, adjust levels and eq. That's all.

I've done some dungeon synth using VSTs but to be honest find the process underwhelming.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Capers »

WCN wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:06 pm
Zalhietzli wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:27 pm
Capers wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:19 pm in the computer, but it sounded like crap.
sounds like crap
buy an audio interface with good analog to digital conversion.
Yep. Been on my to-do-list since… 2008 or so. I don’t think I’ll change my recording routing, but getting better conversions to digital would be fantastic.
For the record I record from master tape/4-track into a Zoom through the line in. Not sure if that’s better than using the mic line on a shitty laptop though.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Mattias Gustafsson »

Capers wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 6:27 pm
WCN wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:06 pm
Zalhietzli wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:27 pm
sounds like crap
buy an audio interface with good analog to digital conversion.
Yep. Been on my to-do-list since… 2008 or so. I don’t think I’ll change my recording routing, but getting better conversions to digital would be fantastic.
For the record I record from master tape/4-track into a Zoom through the line in. Not sure if that’s better than using the mic line on a shitty laptop though.
Same here.
Then I burned it to a cd-r and play it on my stereo and if it sounds good I’m feeling like i am Phil Spector.
The best recordings I like was made when computers didn’t even exist. I have never used Dolby.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by theworldisawarfilm »

These days I am working usually: 4-tracker ---> 1/4" Master ---> Focusrite/Computer to try and put some crunch back on the high-end since I am mostly using recycled 1/4" reels which start to drop off severely sometimes even as low as 8-9kHz(!) (those are particularly old reels though). Tape does all of the work in many respects. Serves me well.

And of course depending on the material, there is generally some degree of arrangement and editing going on in the computer. Although I shy away from 'stacking tracks' as I used to on my first releases. I am a big fan of dub and I suppose this is how I am approaching things these days. There is an initial performance, filling tapes on the 4-tracker, and a subsequent performance of mixing 4-tracks down to a stereo dub on the 1/4" machine. These days I'm not even arranging in the computer that much except to maybe try different sequences of tracks.

Lucky to have access to some studios at the university and will usually take mixes there to check them and finalize things on some nice speakers in a treated room.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Kenny »

Spend a while "writing" a track. Once I have it down, I try and get a good take of it. More often than not, need about 10 takes to get the best one.
Yamaha MG10xU Mixer ---> Mackie Onyx BlackJack interface ---> Reaper
Record to Reaper panned hard left and right to 2 separate tracks. add some reverb eq and compression in the box.
Might layer some field recordings taken from my iPhone to add a bit of depth.
When I master my own tracks, I use Ozone 8. I`m pretty good at mastering for digital, but definitely need help when it`s for tape or vinyl.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by D345 »

I have no technical skills whatsoever and when I started, I didn't really know anything about anything. And I still don't. I recorded with mobile phone all kinds of random stuff from various sound sources I came up when fucking around at rehearsal places etc. Literally experimental music, just trying things. Then I made cut up things of those recordings with audacity. (it's free and easy.) Circle of Shits album Romance Through The Body for example is made with this "method." It's still maybe my favorite way to do things.
Nowadays I'm starting to go pro and record from mixer straight into audacity, hah. One reason in this is that I have less access to record at places where I can blast at full volume. Still getting used to record with just headphones on. I also have walkman which has recording option which has been good for lofi analog recordings, and it has also been a great audio source for home recordings. I have Fostex 4-track recorder, but I haven't yet started using it (I'm lazy to learn new things, hah). Maybe some day!
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Re: Production Techniques

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Kenny wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 7:54 pm Spend a while "writing" a track.
care to share a bit more about this part? i'm interested in trying out more pre-planned approach to making noise, and to generally put more thought in it, since my style has been mainly intuitional so far. i set up my stuff, winging it with the order of pedals and sound sources, and try out stuff. basically a noise jam session, or sonic recess/playtime. on the plus side i've found out some neat ways of creating nasty sounds, but on the long run i don't feel like that satisfies me artistically.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Kenny »

raato wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 11:23 pm
Kenny wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 7:54 pm Spend a while "writing" a track.
care to share a bit more about this part? i'm interested in trying out more pre-planned approach to making noise, and to generally put more thought in it, since my style has been mainly intuitional so far. i set up my stuff, winging it with the order of pedals and sound sources, and try out stuff. basically a noise jam session, or sonic recess/playtime. on the plus side i've found out some neat ways of creating nasty sounds, but on the long run i don't feel like that satisfies me artistically.
Nothing too revolutionary, I get the initial ideas while jamming or get a bit of inspiration from something I hear....once I hit on a couple of things I really like, I make a mental note or take a photo of my settings, so I can easily recreate them. I then record live to Reaper.
My stuff is pretty minimal, I don`t use too many machines and I also use a sequencer, so it is fairly easy to recreate tracks for recording / performance.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Residual / RT »

I don't know shit about recording, mixing or mastering but here's what's working for me.
W.K. wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:01 pm - What is your recording process? Do you record digital? On tape? First on tape then transfer to digital?
Either 4-track recording to a Zoom h6 or using as many inputs as I need, Zoom R16 straight to DAW. I like to be abled to mix and fine tune on the computer. Usually I go digital first, then either certain sounds, tracks or master thru tape or Analog Heat, sometimes both and sometimes two multiple different tape devices. But sometimes I record parts direct to tape and transfer those to the DAW for composition. I also utilize the Octatrack a lot, since it has 4 outputs. I like everything to be on their own channels in a daw, so the 4 outputs lets me make pretty intricate stuff on the Octatrack, using it as a mixer, sampler and an instrument to make compose material and record everything on their own tracks to a DAW. Final editing and mixing always gets done on the computer.
W.K. wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:01 pm - Recording devices, audio interfaces DAWs, stems, recording busses.
Zoom H6, Zoom R16. Analog Heat can also be used as a stereo audio interface. Reaper as DAW. Also have a Tascam 4-track and a Pioneer tape deck with stereo in. Octatrack can record up to 8 minutes of audio in, so you could make songs with it. I sometimes do, but nothing worth releasing. Octatrack + Zoom H6 would be sufficient, and I've recorded material with them a a few outboard pedals before.
W.K. wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:01 pm - Do you add effects after your initial recording? Chopping up recorded sounds?
Yeah, I sometimes add reverb or delay from a VST or put the sound onto my sampler, then run it thru pedals or Quadraverb for the desired effect. There's not a lot of improvisation in my recording process.
W.K. wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:01 pm - Recording mono vs. stereo. Panning. EQing. Using filters and gates for eliminating unwanted sounds (or using Ozone or other tools).
Always record stereo, but sometimes produce mono master. I have a nice filter on the Analog Heat, and as it can be used as an outboard effect as well as a VST it's easy to just filter or EQ a single track with it.
W.K. wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:01 pm - Unique ways to record a sound. Recording in public spaces? Adding field records to your composition? Recording from amps?
I use all three, often record at my summercabin and later add those sounds, field recordings or metal abuse to compositions at home.
W.K. wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:01 pm - Questions like "how do I get this specific sound" or "how do I warm up my sound" and "how do I get my sound fuller" but also "should I recorded with aux or do I need a dedicated audio interface?" (answer is never use aux).
Warm up your sound, get a tape deck or a 4-track. Or an Analog Heat I guess, it's great for warming up masters. Learn how to use a DAW. It's very handy for mixing and mastering.
W.K. wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:01 pm - Things to avoid.
I'd say VST's and the digital realm in general as sound sources. Digital gives you less happy accidents which are what noise is really about.

Last thing: Mastering is essential. It's not always necessary if the audio is sufficiently loud, but it needs to be sufficiently loud. If you're unsure whether your master is, ask someone to check it and pay whatever it costs. You'll be better off in the long run even if you lose money.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Remi »

My process is all over the place and depends a lot on what I'm working on.

I often use a tape 4-tracker to make rougher music that doesn't need much editing or to create sound sources. I hardly ever cut parts or my recordings, rearrange them, etc. 98% of my stuff is spontaneous recordings. So for that stuff, I record on my 4-tracker and will either make an extra master to tape or transfer everything to my computer afterwards because since I like to use older tapes for masters, issues can occur with that.

However, as I've mostly recorded for tapes as well as vinyl, I don't think in terms of tracks but by side. I'll record side A and then side B. It mostly comes from the fact that music needs to create moods for me and I don't like to break these too quickly. For that kind of stuff, computer is necessary for minimal editing, that is to say making sure everything flows smoothly (fadeins and fadeouts.) A computer is more practical for this.

When I do this, my sound sources are transfered to my computer through a Focusrite Clarett interface and now I use Reaper. I used to use Samplitude but I like Reaper better. So sound sources will most often come from tapes transferred to my computer, or synths usually recorded straight in it through the interface depending on the result I want.

I loathe VSTs, I hardly ever use them.

And although I actually like recording and working on music a lot, mixing is proper hell for me. I'm seriously deaf (not from listening to music loud) and can't hear anything above 8 kHz in addition to missing random frequencies below that point. Think of it like constantly living in a huge and thick cotton ball when I'm not wearing hearing aid or that everything in your environment gets stupidly loud all the time and sounding like 128kbps MP3 when I do wear them. Needless to say it led to funny situations when recording with my bands (Me: "Let's make the snare louder!", my friend :"We can't", me :"Liar we can't hear it!", and then my friend shows me it's actually in the red and super freaking loud) or while choosing higher end headphones so I can work on my stuff without annoying my girlfriend and get better at mixing ("Mmmh the specs for both of these are amazing but they're expensive, should I get the one with the better definition or the one that keep my recordings more neutral? Oh well, I won't hear the difference anyway...") So since I don't like mixing with my eyes, I make do with what I hear, and hope for the best. Fortunately, the kind persons who mastered my stuff after I recorded it fixed it slightly for me as well.

Anyway, what matters the most here is that you're satisfied with your workflow and with what you get from it. There's no right or wrong way of doing it and it's all about your needs. It doesn't make your recordings better or worse than anyone else, although I believe good recordings can truly elevate the quality of your noise (think Jason Crumer or Umpio.) If you're not happy with either your workflow and y'its results, ask for help, there are many people who'll be happy to give you some advice.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by pumpensumpf »

Whenever I read that someone uses tape loops I wonder what is in these loops?
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Residual / RT »

pumpensumpf wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 8:11 am Whenever I read that someone uses tape loops I wonder what is in these loops?
Whatever you record in them?
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by moozz »

Zalhietzli wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 3:34 pm How do you people make music with Audacity and not want to kill yourself ? I get that limitations breed creativity and all that, but jesus.
Oh, and I am not attacking or mocking you in any way, or suggesting you should change your method. I am just genuinely surprised and a bit admirative.
I mix on my 4-tracker and only trim the recording in Audacity if needed. Or delete short parts. Select the unwanted part of the audio, hit delete, export to the final .wav and it is done. Simple tools for simple tasks. If I was doing something more complicated I am sure Audacity would not be the best tool but for now I don't need all the bells and whistles I would not use anyway.
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Re: Production Techniques

Post by Residual / RT »

Personally I see no reason to use Audacity when Reaper exists. But, if all you need to do is trim files then Audacity gets the job done.
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