(Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

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(Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by thatonekidatshows »

This topic has always fascinated me (and, if I'm being honest, probably attracted me to the music a bit), so what are your thoughts?

What are some artists who exhibit those themes? Why? Is it necessary? Does it impact your decisions to listen to certain projects? Is there a line to be drawn; if so, where is it? Is there a "tasteful" way to do it? Has the landscape of "problematic" themes shifted over the years? Should we separate the art from the artists?

I will add my thoughts a little later because I am currently finishing a couple of homework assignments before class in an hour.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by holy ghost »

My nuclear hot take on this is that I’m not particularly offended by some guy posting cumshot pics or fascist imagery on an album cover but I’m certainly not interested in it either.

I think someone like Ester/Himukalt is really interesting and does really unique work. I think her work is 100x more “real” than any of the “shock jock” PE.

I’m sure I have more thoughts on this tempestuous subject but that’s the meat & potatoes of it for me. I like noise that goes clang smash kaboom, I don’t really care for the balaclava boys yelling over a taped down key on an MS20 mini.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by adult human »

Quite a lot of this conversation took place in the Dislikes/Turn Offs thread. By all means, have at it and do a new, dedicated discussion but I suspect the cross section of opinion will be largely the same.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by drift »

Should we separate the art from the artists?
I think you have to, to an extent, or you misunderstand the art. I get sick of hearing biographical sketches about important artists as a response/description of their work. there are bad people making art, then there is straight up propaganda for stupidity, which SOME noise can come off like (so I'm thinking of some anti "queer" noise I remember). I'd be interested in reading what anyone thought of people feigning reactionary views, not only cos I never worked out who is, but also because I wonder if anyone is so stupid as to accidentally promote these views.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by SS1535 »

For the vast majority of "problematic" topics, I don't care at all. I do try to avoid material about animal abuse though (I don't know of much/any of that in noise though?).
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by Fire of the Mind »

It's pretty much entirely on a case-by-case basis, albeit with some broad trends. I can at least enjoy or grudgingly respect some really questionable shit if I can connect with some element outside of that shock factor, but if you're not bringing some level of vulnerability or insight to the material, it's probably not going to hit nearly as well as something more empathetic or thoughtful or just plain raw. Like, Himukalt was mentioned earlier, Interracial Sex came up in the other thread, I'd throw in latter-day Sutcliffe Jügend—that stuff is revealing and uncomfortable in how it approaches that sort of subject matter, and I don't think it would be nearly so effective were that personal investment not there. You can hear the blood put into it, if you will.

Then again, it's not like I can't enjoy "trashier" noise on its own merits, but a lot of the time it's a different mood it's satisfying, like a sleazy exploitation film or something. Which can be a lot of fun, and certainly less draining than the super personal shit. But unless it has a really strong sonic edge, I dunno. Again, it depends, but I have to give what really gets under my skin the edge.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by 33033 »

I feel like this is a bit of a dead horse subject and I have a ton of thoughts around it. Mostly, I think theres bad actors that push "problematic" lyrics/themes because they've bought into some stupid fantasy world, and stupid people who push "problematic" lyrics/themes because it makes them look edgy or deep. I don't like either.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by holy ghost »

33033 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:09 pm I feel like this is a bit of a dead horse subject
I totally agree and I’m regretting chiming in, but I think the comment about “separating the art from the artist” is worth thinking about in the context that it was at one point used to justify appreciating art while being aware the creator was a piece of shit rather than a defence mechanism when called out on the context of your art. You want to be shocking and edgy fine but don’t get mad when people aren’t appreciating your sick MS20 mini patches and only focusing on the controversial elements or don’t bother to contextualize, that’s the risk you run….. I don’t bother to do this with black metal, why would I do it with noise?

And here I am, about to push send and regretting this post already…..
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by Whiteboard Maverick »

Depictions of sexual violence, extreme right wing symbolism, white power imagery, pathetic edgelord shit from ex-private school boys. Personally I'm not convinced that deploying these tropes does much now, at least not in the ways I'm encountering it in forums such as this and Special Interests. Someone like Pasi Markkula has done some genuinely great work - the Bizarre Uproar WC-Orja Videoclip from Institute Of Paraphilia Studies Volume 3 is a brilliant example of what the project is capable of; really bracing, violent noise sound coupled with complementary filthy filmed actions. But then I investigated Xenophobic Ejaculation heading further down that road, and explanations for it seemed to centre on the use of the white power imagery as some kind of sexualised gesture (the fetishisation of this imagery, essentially), crouched within a general desire for work expressing a misanthropic outlook. It's possible I misread some of the nuance of what was said - the interview was translated from Finnish - but for me that isn't doing much of interest, at least in comparison to those Bizarre Uproar works. The apparent misanthropic core is of little use personally, and reads as a bit pretentious as an actual outsider from much of the noise community. You're evidently a part of a pretty fucking large underground network supporting your efforts - you're perhaps selectively misanthropic at best?

My own encounters with artists pursuing 'problematic' themes in the local context haven't endeared me to the approach. Being upset and pissy when shows are cancelled because a venue decided they didn't want to host artists using ambiguously deployed fascist imagery, or they acted like arseholes to others involved or whatever. Go right ahead and make some bad noise with attendant bad boy imagery, you're free to do that. Others in turn are free to respond to it, which may involve refusing to host your crappy art. What the fuck do you expect, if you're pursuing misanthropic creative gestures? Or if you deploy this stuff ambiguously, you're going to have to wear the consequences of a response to it.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by 33033 »

One other thing I'd like to add is that when I got into noise it was through Merzbow's "Animal Magnetism" and the theme is chickens.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by SS1535 »

33033 wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:34 pm One other thing I'd like to add is that when I got into noise it was through Merzbow's "Animal Magnetism" and the theme is chickens.
This is a theme I wholeheartedly endorse.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

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Whiteboard Maverick wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:07 pm Depictions of sexual violence, extreme right wing symbolism, white power imagery, pathetic edgelord shit from ex-private school boys. Personally I'm not convinced that deploying these tropes does much now...
I am not trying to start an argument, but XE did still manage to provoke a large (reasonable) response from you. Also, I imagine that it is one of the projects providing motivation/background for threads like this. It seems to me that the "trope" in question is still as powerful as ever--perhaps even more in the contemporary context than when it was first used.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by adult human »

SS1535 wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:03 am
Whiteboard Maverick wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:07 pm Depictions of sexual violence, extreme right wing symbolism, white power imagery, pathetic edgelord shit from ex-private school boys. Personally I'm not convinced that deploying these tropes does much now...
I am not trying to start an argument, but XE did still manage to provoke a large (reasonable) response from you. Also, I imagine that it is one of the projects providing motivation/background for threads like this. It seems to me that the "trope" in question is still as powerful as ever--perhaps even more in the contemporary context than when it was first used.
This response is a part of the conversation that never gets picked up on very much and, also without trying to be argumentative, I happen to think it's utter bollocks. People who are aware of a lineage of symbolism in this music discussing what it means to deploy it within that context contemporarily is discourse within a microcultural community. It doesn't come close to an actual social discussion around what sex, fascism, morality etc mean today. Someone expressing distaste about this is of course a reaction, but it's a reaction borne from frustration with stupidity and insincere people, not outrage about the contents of the topic itself. By no sane or intelligent metric does this mean that use of such symbolism now is 'as powerful as ever'. This is such an absurd proposition and if it is true that gaining a response like this might be a key motivator for some projects then it only confirms how shallow and lacking in any genuine artistic vision or insight these projects are. If it's true then I honestly don't see how a project like that can be seen as anything besides a circular, self-referential in-joke peddled by individuals who then invoke flimsy shields of ambiguous 'artistry' in order avoid having to actually back their shit up in a discursive or aesthetic context. Finally, what does the 'reaction' of the fawning nerds who eat this 'spicy' shit up and just think it's all brilliant have to do with that motivation?
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by xIncorruptibleCorpse777x »

I really want to say something... I always notice how when non-white and "woke" people troll white edgelords in art (especially pe, noise, and metal), they get super-triggered and act like total snowflakes. They just completely flip out and melt down. It's very childish and shows a complete lack of self-awareness.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

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adult human wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:14 am
SS1535 wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:03 am
Whiteboard Maverick wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:07 pm Depictions of sexual violence, extreme right wing symbolism, white power imagery, pathetic edgelord shit from ex-private school boys. Personally I'm not convinced that deploying these tropes does much now...
I am not trying to start an argument, but XE did still manage to provoke a large (reasonable) response from you. Also, I imagine that it is one of the projects providing motivation/background for threads like this. It seems to me that the "trope" in question is still as powerful as ever--perhaps even more in the contemporary context than when it was first used.
This response is a part of the conversation that never gets picked up on very much and, also without trying to be argumentative, I happen to think it's utter bollocks. People who are aware of a lineage of symbolism in this music discussing what it means to deploy it within that context contemporarily is discourse within a microcultural community. It doesn't come close to an actual social discussion around what sex, fascism, morality etc mean today. Someone expressing distaste about this is of course a reaction, but it's a reaction borne from frustration with stupidity and insincere people, not outrage about the contents of the topic itself. By no sane or intelligent metric does this mean that use of such symbolism now is 'as powerful as ever'. This is such an absurd proposition and if it is true that gaining a response like this might be a key motivator for some projects then it only confirms how shallow and lacking in any genuine artistic vision or insight these projects are. If it's true then I honestly don't see how a project like that can be seen as anything besides a circular, self-referential in-joke peddled by individuals who then invoke flimsy shields of ambiguous 'artistry' in order avoid having to actually back their shit up in a discursive or aesthetic context. Finally, what does the 'reaction' of the fawning nerds who eat this 'spicy' shit up and just think it's all brilliant have to do with that motivation?
This makes me think of the text on the cover of Whitehouse's "Cruise." The point is not to "raise questions," but to thrust (pun intended) "answers" into the world. I think it is a mistake to look to/think about XE in any sort of social context or as trying to invite a certain response (from critics or fans), as that is not the intent whatsoever. As he said in an interview, the project is not only non-political, but totally personal.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by Remi »

SS1535 wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:25 pm I think it is a mistake to look to/think about XE in any sort of social context or as trying to invite a certain response (from critics or fans), as that is not the intent whatsoever. As he said in an interview, the project is not only non-political, but totally personal.
That's like, the most ridiculous and lamest cop-out, though. Especially since he runs a label that thrives on this kind of" non-political" and "totally personal" releases from himself and a few other projects.

It can't be "not-political" when the only thing that attracts 98% of XE's listeners to the project is its political artwork or content in general.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by Residual / RT »

I have no problem with "problematic" lyrics or themes as a concept, but most lyrics or themes people think are problematic, like over the top misogyny or white power / racist stuff are just boring and cliche'd at this point. The reaction they get from me is boredom. Same goes with collages of blood & guts, pictures of dead people etc. Body horror still has potential to be unsettling, but if it's just what Macronympha, Carcass et al. did 20-30 years ago, then it's just going to induce boredom. It takes a lot to shock jaded people raised on the internet I guess. If torturing women or poc gets you off, by all means make a project about it. But if it doesn't, maybe try something that does? That could actually end up being somewhat original, instead you you just being an edgelord and saying it's transgressive. It's not, it's boring.

It's kind of hard to think of actually transgressive subjects. A pro-animal abuse project? That would really unsettle folks, me included since i'm a bleeding heart animal activist type. Like, if you wanna elicit a response, choose something horrible that hasn't been done to death. That's what those old projects did. Pedophilia? Been done, but not by many.

As far as Xenophobic Ejaculation goes, not really that transgressive or interesting, just a crude take on a pretty well known kink. I mean Ilsa, She-Wolf of the SS is basically XE as a grindhouse flick. But it's obviously a personal kink of his, which makes it ok in my book, although not personally interesting to me.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by xIncorruptibleCorpse777x »

Seems like the only thing left in power electronics like this is to upset the far-right by trolling them. Which is funny, but about as hard to do as trying to catch fish by throwing dynamite into a barrel full of them. There's no challenge to it. You might as well be making memes. It gets the same reaction. The concept of "transgressive" art often comes across to me as some weird creep jerking off on chat roulette in order to get a rise out of people. Unless you're pushing boundaries for an actual purpose, it's just going to be written off as childish nonsense. It's not hard to upset people. Especially nowadays. Just make a post on facebook about something controversial and set it to public. Then bam! You've got a bunch of upset people. Way less effort, same result. Why not create art that makes people think and reevaluate their attitudes and beliefs? The worst threat to the world is not the right or left - they're selfishness, pride, complacency, and indifference. Challenge that in people's lives and you've just done the most controversial thing of all.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by Residual / RT »

xIncorruptibleCorpse777x wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:30 am Seems like the only thing left in power electronics like this is to upset the far-right by trolling them. Which is funny, but about as hard to do as trying to catch fish by throwing dynamite into a barrel full of them. There's no challenge to it. You might as well be making memes. It gets the same reaction. The concept of "transgressive" art often comes across to me as some weird creep jerking off on chat roulette in order to get a rise out of people. Unless you're pushing boundaries for an actual purpose, it's just going to be written off as childish nonsense. It's not hard to upset people. Especially nowadays. Just make a post on facebook about something controversial and set it to public. Then bam! You've got a bunch of upset people. Way less effort, same result. Why not create art that makes people think and reevaluate their attitudes and beliefs? The worst threat to the world is not the right or left - they're selfishness, pride, complacency, and indifference. Challenge that in people's lives and you've just done the most controversial thing of all.
I kinda disagree, are those people really upset? I don't think so. Upsetting people is harder, but getting a reaction is very easy. As you said, just make a dumb post on social media. And that act has about as much worth as releasing a "transgressive" noise tape just for the sake of getting a reaction. Zero.

The problem with "making art that makes people think" is that you can't really decide beforehand what will make people think. Most art, even the most thoughtful and deep won't even register.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

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Residual / RT wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:34 am
xIncorruptibleCorpse777x wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:30 am Seems like the only thing left in power electronics like this is to upset the far-right by trolling them. Which is funny, but about as hard to do as trying to catch fish by throwing dynamite into a barrel full of them. There's no challenge to it. You might as well be making memes. It gets the same reaction. The concept of "transgressive" art often comes across to me as some weird creep jerking off on chat roulette in order to get a rise out of people. Unless you're pushing boundaries for an actual purpose, it's just going to be written off as childish nonsense. It's not hard to upset people. Especially nowadays. Just make a post on facebook about something controversial and set it to public. Then bam! You've got a bunch of upset people. Way less effort, same result. Why not create art that makes people think and reevaluate their attitudes and beliefs? The worst threat to the world is not the right or left - they're selfishness, pride, complacency, and indifference. Challenge that in people's lives and you've just done the most controversial thing of all.
The problem with "making art that makes people think" is that you can't really decide beforehand what will make people think. Most art, even the most thoughtful and deep won't even register.
Hence the Whitehouse "Cruise" cover text again!
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by Residual / RT »

SS1535 wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:41 am
Residual / RT wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:34 am
xIncorruptibleCorpse777x wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:30 am Seems like the only thing left in power electronics like this is to upset the far-right by trolling them. Which is funny, but about as hard to do as trying to catch fish by throwing dynamite into a barrel full of them. There's no challenge to it. You might as well be making memes. It gets the same reaction. The concept of "transgressive" art often comes across to me as some weird creep jerking off on chat roulette in order to get a rise out of people. Unless you're pushing boundaries for an actual purpose, it's just going to be written off as childish nonsense. It's not hard to upset people. Especially nowadays. Just make a post on facebook about something controversial and set it to public. Then bam! You've got a bunch of upset people. Way less effort, same result. Why not create art that makes people think and reevaluate their attitudes and beliefs? The worst threat to the world is not the right or left - they're selfishness, pride, complacency, and indifference. Challenge that in people's lives and you've just done the most controversial thing of all.
The problem with "making art that makes people think" is that you can't really decide beforehand what will make people think. Most art, even the most thoughtful and deep won't even register.
Hence the Whitehouse "Cruise" cover text again!
I sincerely doubt many artists with "problematic" themes have understood such truths regarding the art world and are commenting on that level. Noise & adjacent styles have just become genrefied and I guess "vile shit" is a subgenre, or at least a trope withing the genre. Maybe people should just admit that generally speaking, noise / industrial / PE has as much depth as any type of shock rock, like death metal.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

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Residual / RT wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:34 am The problem with "making art that makes people think" is that you can't really decide beforehand what will make people think. Most art, even the most thoughtful and deep won't even register.
I've done it with performances where my intent was to make people think about mental illness and was told after the set that it really impacted them, so I dunno what you're talking about. Same with raising awareness of Palestinian suffering by bringing up the fact that Christian Palestinians were being treated just as badly as their Muslim neighbors (this was the early 2010's). People said that they didn't know about that and I was told that it made them rethink their position on Israel. And some of them went on to support BDS and the Kairos Movement.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by adult human »

Residual / RT wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:12 pm I sincerely doubt many artists with "problematic" themes have understood such truths regarding the art world and are commenting on that level. Noise & adjacent styles have just become genrefied and I guess "vile shit" is a subgenre, or at least a trope withing the genre. Maybe people should just admit that generally speaking, noise / industrial / PE has as much depth as any type of shock rock, like death metal.
This, right here, is it in a nutshell. You don't need to go very far to find (badly made) arguments that there remains a bold, provocative value in the persistence of these tropes but time after time, to anyone who is paying any real attention, it is revealed over and over again that titillation and mimicry is the sum game of this whole shit.
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by +hp+ »

i think there are still plenty of shocking/scary/offensive topics to have edgy lyrics and themes about without being a lame fascist or punching down

not that i personally am interested in hurting anyones feelings(besides Sitters and lameoids who dont believe in Rock n Roll, i want them to cry TEARS OF BLOOD) but there is tons of stuff out there to ruin someones day or make them feel bad about without being "problematic"

if you wanna be a cool and dangerous bad boy in 2022 u just gotta be more creative, right? its not like there arent a billion horrible things in this dumb world to talk and whine about

like what about that cheese that you have to wear glasses to eat because otherwise maggots will get in your eyes
or like being medically terrified to drink water?
or talking about the horrors of historical/modern war/trench warfare(thrash metal or crust punk style) in particular while maybe a little well worn is still fertile ground for extreme poetry
or the fact that all your iphones and electric cars are made with tons of cobalt that is supposedly only mined by child slaves? dang that sucks
GHOSTS?! tons of people are still scared of ghosts!

furthermore, does p.e. HAVE to offend someone? can't there be Power in a multitude of subject matters that aren't the same old tired tropes, what about Power Electronics that is like Uplifting and Edifying? (without having cheesey ambient pads or whatever)

it seems like this one and the "hates/turn offs" thread both have tons of whining and complaining (dont get me wrong i Love to Complain too) but like how about some SOLUTIONS?
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Re: (Potentially) "Problematic" Lyrics/Themes in Noise Music

Post by Residual / RT »

pE without offensive bonehead lyrics is just a white dude rapping without any skills
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