Packaging and art at the expense of…

[thedemonfeedback666]

Erik Nystrand of Capers makes a good point in his WCN interviewing, speaking on noise and emotion. He says something to the effect that many artists focus on packaging and art and leading the listener with things other than what’s actually on the album, while the album itself sounds generic.

This is something I’ve spoken with many people about. Richard Ramirez told me many years ago that he doesn’t give a shit about packaging as long as the “music” itself is top notch. I tend to agree. Not that the two are mutually exclusive. But just like with death or black metal and album covers, I’ve grabbed special editions with cool packaging just to discover that the noise on it was meh or garbage.

Do you feel that there is an uptick of people who “mislead” or cover up for shitty noise by constructing elaborate packaging or naming their release after some serial killer or political movement?

This all being said, I have tons of special editions where the noise is just as good as the amazing packaging (I’m looking at you Phage, Gutterbloat, Fusty, Urashima).

Sorry for the essay. I’m sure this won’t be popular lol

[chryptusrecords]

objects and music are important because of emotional imprinting we do on them. i certainly will occasionally spend extra money on an original edition of something for it's own sake. there are also albums i love i dont even own physical copies of anymore. albums i love with terrible artwork, and sometimes a terrible aesthetic decision in presentation makes the music that much more compelling.

edit: special editions are normally a scam. what matters IMO is intention of artist. if artwork is very minimal and slapdash, but you can tell it is intended this way, then fair play. big glossy cover with lots of extra professionally printed inserts and color vinyl is not necessarily intentional, just nice expensive add-ons for label. all it takes is more money.

[shrouded.in.antiquity]

I think that excellent material can always make up for shitty artwork but I cannot think of a release that had terrible material that I made a point to try enjoying simply because I liked the artwork or the elaborate packaging. I don't really understand why you wouldn't just strive for having both quality material AND quality artwork/packaging/etc. Why compromise either of them? Let alone one for the other.

[GENITAL STIGMATA]

THIS IS WHY I LOVE ANY MEDIUM OF RELEASE WRAPPED IN CHICKEN WIRE OR SOMETHING COMPARABLE. EVEN IF THE SOUNDS CONTAINED WITHIN ARE ONLY “OKAY”, IT DOESN’T TAKE A HERCULEAN EFFORT TO WRAP SOMETHING IN METAL WIRE AND SO IT DOESN’T SEEM SUPER TRYHARD NOR SUPER LOW EFFORT. KIND OF THE PERFECT HAPPY MEDIUM. PLUS IT HURTS TO OPEN AND THAT’S ALWAYS ENTERTAINING

[Exclusionzonedayton]

Agreed that packaging can’t make up for crap music. On the other hand musical taste varies and that plays a part. I love interesting packaging because I like the physical art aspect of music too. We tend to like physical media. Why not put something into that part of it too. For my projects I don’t release anything that I don’t listen to myself. If it’s out there, it’s something that I think is complete and good and stands on its own. Any special artwork is purely for my enjoyment of creating it. I want people to enjoy it too but I make the music and art for me first. I recently upgraded my tape deck for dubbing and learned a few things about making a better sounding tape so future stuff should be better. As for buying, I definitely have bought music based on packaging alone. Alternatively I’ve not bought stuff based on artwork or titles etc. Shock and controversy for its own sake is boring to me. I’ll pass by most times.

[minimal.impact]

Do you feel that there is an uptick of people who “mislead” or cover up for shitty noise by constructing elaborate packaging or naming their release after some serial killer or political movement?

Not trying to start my tenure on this board with any sort of controversy, but this seems to have rung true more times than not. The packaging comment too is something I am guilty of to a degree. There are only a few instances I have felt compelled to engage with or buy a release that has special packaging, though for one reason or another have yet to do so beyond the occasional zip lock bag.

[Residual / RT]

To me packaging and format are just as important as the contents of the release. Cool, well thought out packaging elevates a great release, and that's kind of what a physical copy should do? Especially nowadays when physical media is more like a luxury item or a collectable rather than the requisite for listening to music.

Pro-dubbed tape with simple, generic j-card is fine but it makes me wonder, if you're not giving the physical form the same attention as the what it contains, why bother with a physical release at all? Do we really need everything on tape so much that we're happy with generic gas station goldies -level tapes?

And I don't mean everything should be like, gimmicky special packaging, but at minimum cool, well thought out art, maybe utilizing modern possibilites of digital printing regarding materials etc.

[adult human]

Pro-dubbed tape with simple, generic j-card is fine but it makes me wonder, if you're not giving the physical form the same attention as the what it contains, why bother with a physical release at all? Do we really need everything on tape so much that we're happy with generic gas station goldies -level tapes?

So you can play it on your stereo? Might just be I'm out of touch but I don't have a good setup to listen to releases on my hifi if they're not LP, CD or cassette. Enjoy downloads fine but it's a different kind of listening for me.

at minimum cool, well thought out art, maybe utilizing modern possibilites of digital printing regarding materials etc.

Agreement on well thought out art for sure. It disappoints me when artwork doesn't seem to be the result of an actual idea so much as a process of messing about with whatever collages or digital image processes. Unless, of course, it goes so far the other direction that its crappiness becomes endearing.

The idea of modern possibilities in print and materials is a very risky business imo. There are hundreds upon hundreds of releases coming out all the time which go in on some current design choice or available media packaging. They all seem cool for 5 mins before quickly becoming relics of out dated aesthetics and market availability. Anyone remember those metal CD cases with see thru panels on the front? Ugh. After a while, when you have some experience of producing things yourself, it becomes difficult to forget that the object you're holding is as much a result of filling out PDF templates according to a manufacturer's specs and paying money to have it made in bulk as it is the aesthetic vision of the person who paid that money. This is why, for me, it's not all that impressive to see the upper end choices here, no matter how nice embossed text or on shell cassette printing might seem for a second. I often thing that type of thing predicates itself on the idea of being evidently more expensive and 'professionally produced' than home made stuff more so than what it offers to the aura of the project and album in question. No amount of that stuff is a substitute for having a knack for the simple presentation of images and texts.

To branch out back into the main convo, I'd say the same is true of wild, specialist packaging too. I was talking about these kinds of releases with Thomas of Research Laboratories last weekend and we both agreed that ultra special packaging really needs to be a marriage of sound and image to work. He has done a lot of very effective work like this on his label and it doesn't feel like the sounds or the physical components could work in isolation. They are part of a greater artistic statement that unites audio, imagery and even the action of having conceptualised and presented the piece in such a way. It's neither just music nor visual art. Something else. This is the standard I think should be aimed for with that stuff. Shoving a CD or tape in a big box with a load of irrelevant crap just because you can or having an edition of your normal album that comes with a skateboard or used condom stapled to it doesn't really result in an art object imho. I own plenty of shit like this, but rarely if ever plump for it these days.

[holy ghost]

Shakespeare once wrote "you can't polish a turd", and he was more right than he knew.

That being said weird packaging has the auspicious distinction of either being put on a shelf (see: Pieces box set that cannot be put next to another release thanks to the sticky tape) or put in the "weird box" in my closet where odd shaped releases go to die.... stuff in the weird box ain't bad per say but it gets lost in the sands of time..... I think for my money it starts to be a debate of "is this art?" larger than a noise release or "is this stupid?" when I get weird sand particles on the floor and have to keep your sandy release in a plastic bag.....

[Residual / RT]

The idea of modern possibilities in print and materials is a very risky business imo. There are hundreds upon hundreds of releases coming out all the time which go in on some current design choice or available media packaging. They all seem cool for 5 mins before quickly becoming relics of out dated aesthetics and market availability. Anyone remember those metal CD cases with see thru panels on the front? Ugh. After a while, when you have some experience of producing things yourself, it becomes difficult to forget that the object you're holding is as much a result of filling out PDF templates according to a manufacturer's specs and paying money to have it made in bulk as it is the aesthetic vision of the person who paid that money. This is why, for me, it's not all that impressive to see the upper end choices here, no matter how nice embossed text or on shell cassette printing might seem for a second. I often thing that type of thing predicates itself on the idea of being evidently more expensive and 'professionally produced' than home made stuff more so than what it offers to the aura of the project and album in question. No amount of that stuff is a substitute for having a knack for the simple presentation of images and texts.

Well it doesn't have to be "upper end", just the fact that you can actually choose the paper you print the j-card, use plastic which can be especially cool when combined with paper. You can use stickers, too. What I mean is, digital printing has made implementing elaborate packaging or artwork cheap enough not to make the whole release financially senseless, even with small editions. It can also be rough and homemade, but if you need to get something special professionally printed, you can do it.

To branch out back into the main convo, I'd say the same is true of wild, specialist packaging too. I was talking about these kinds of releases with Thomas of Research Laboratories last weekend and we both agreed that ultra special packaging really needs to be a marriage of sound and image to work. He has done a lot of very effective work like this on his label and it doesn't feel like the sounds or the physical components could work in isolation. They are part of a greater artistic statement that unites audio, imagery and even the action of having conceptualised and presented the piece in such a way. It's neither just music nor visual art. Something else. This is the standard I think should be aimed for with that stuff. Shoving a CD or tape in a big box with a load of irrelevant crap just because you can or having an edition of your normal album that comes with a skateboard or used condom stapled to it doesn't really result in an art object imho. I own plenty of shit like this, but rarely if ever plump for it these days.

I see this as a fundamental component in noise, the marriage of form and content. If the actual form is boring and underwhelming, it is reflected on the content. At least for me. And vice versa, naturally. But the problem I don't think is people trying to polish a turd, it goes both ways. Cool packaging for underwhelming content is just as bad as underwhelming packaging or art for a cool release.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

Fuck, do whatever you want, as long as the sounds are good.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

But that, of course, is the question.

[adult human]

Fuck, do whatever you want, as long as the sounds are good.

Well yes, this is key to it all. I didn't want to make this point given if we're here talking about the finer points, we may as well do so without too many top level qualifiers. But I agree. Even if bad imagery can really let an album down I've had lots of crappy design and packaging rescued by killer music. I don't think the reverse has ever been true.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

Fuck, do whatever you want, as long as the packagings are good.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

But that, of course, is the question.

[33033]

If the material on the recording is good enough, it can actually enhance the artwork even if it is "bad". Maybe gives a certain feel alongside the music that wouldn't be experienced any other way.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

Fuck, do whatever you want, as long as the sounds are good.

Well yes, this is key to it all. I didn't want to make this point given if we're here talking about the finer points, we may as well do so without too many top level qualifiers. But I agree. Even if bad imagery can really let an album down I've had lots of crappy design and packaging rescued by killer music. I don't think the reverse has ever been true.

That said, the recent T.D. is a lovely example of the awesomeness of the packaging necessarily biasing (in the best way) the impression of the sounds. In that sense I get where Mr Haras is coming from (whom I'd cite as one of the better-known persons to come strongly on the side of wickedass* packaging). When the only way to safely access the goods is through the thoughtfully provisioned surgical gloves, you know you're in for something special. And even if you weren't...

The ritual must be kept alive.

* for a given value of "wickedass"

[CONDEMN]

I've always felt that great sounds can have terrible packaging and still hold value.
Great packaging but terrible sounds will just be lost to time and very few people will care

The best scenario is thoughtful art/packaging that was designed with intention for the audio.

[SS1535]

This is why I love the Wrath releases---they nicely include both hand-made collages and extra inserts, which make the release unique and somehow more substantial than just another printed J-card, while never going over the top. Simplicity is sometimes the best option.

However, this is coming from someone who loves the cheap cd slipcases that Troniks used to put out...

[Phenol Injection]

Nice packaging can never make up for a bad record, like others have stated as well. Personally, I always liked the less is more approach. Just a simple layout with everything in good quality. Nice paper, good, non-pixelated, print and so on. Something that shows care and vision but without being overtly flashy. Listening to my old Forseti CDs right now, and they sum up my point pretty well, I think. Care was taken throughout. The aesthetic is coherent and elegant and suits the mood of the music + the format will fit on the shelf with the rest of the CDs so it doesn't screw up the order of the collection.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

The ritual must be kept alive.

Of course, you need not use the word ritual if the word offends you. (I mean, it probably offends me on some level but that never stopped me before.)

So let's return or re-image this ritual so-called as a sort of necessary process or procedure (though procedure sounds a lot worse on so many levels than ritual but there you have it). A sort of necessary process, a sort of coerced or coercive engagement. Not everyone is keen to feel that, that conscious sense of being forcibly compelled to do or feel or engage a certain way, but after all what's in a joke (for example). A coercive engagement with the humor, that is to say the humanity at the core of the work. Now hold on you will say, what of say that real cold sorta stuff, right. Say, like a KM Toepfer or an Autechre. Them lean mean cold n clean chromium plated contour'd machine like austere aus-tech-like reductivist precision n contrast n clarity (talking bout packaging right). And what of it. That too could be read as all the more didactic, even and up to the level of pantomime, to take it all the way (and it needn't be, but just sayin it most assuredly can). And then still a very acute sense of what the oracle intended, or at the very least would in some way have vaguely hinted at, amiright? Thus to the sense of getting, dunno choose a hole, coerced, compelled, pushed, guided, diddled...into the the light (or the cold, and dark, and damp), to receive a certain agglomeration of parts as a seamless or perceptibly cohesive, for a given value of cohesive, whole.

or not.

So the essence, if there were one (and there probably isn't, but let's pretend for the sake of...). If there were an essence, it would probably be suspicious of any suggestion of some sort of trade-off, because I'll take your apples and your little oranges too.

okay, looks like it stays. imagine that

[Residual / RT]

I just find the comparison of underwhelming contents but elaborate packaging vs. killer content but underwhelming packaging odd. I mean naturally you're not buying a noise release for the packaging alone, you'd want the contents to be good? So naturally bad noise or music in general isn't worth buying, no matter how cool the packaging is. What's more comparable are great releases with bad vs. good packaging or covers. With a physical release, you'd rather want something that looks good and feels good, no? I mean it's about representing your music. If the feeling you get from the album cover or package is laziness or lack of vision, it does reflect on the contens of the release to me.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

I mean naturally you're not buying a noise release for the packaging alone, you'd want the contents to be good?

You'd have to watch Mr Haras on WCN. Not saying I'd necessarily agree. But. Perspective.

[holy ghost]

While good packaging can't make up for a "bad" release, it's all subjective and I think I can safely say that for me "bad" packaging can hinder my appreciation to a certain extent. When I say "bad" I typically mean underwhelming effort or sloppy presentation, not artwork I don't like. A sloppy xerox stuffed into a crappy plastic bag? A spray painted tape with a blank case? 10 minutes of music on a C60 with some marker squiggles on it? This is all fine if your vibe is "anti everything" or you delight in soaking your CDRs in garbage or whatever but when someone takes pride in their release that really does shine through. I don't need everything to be a deluxe die hard edition with trinkets or get "the crypt treatment" (remember that?) but I do appreciate a solid well designed noise release....

[ChicagoAnimal]

Now that I am a little older and have more "noisexperience" under my belt, I find the strange/extra packaging thing to be pretty useless. On the other hand, I think that it can provide some extra stimuli when pondering the music, specifically since noise can activate the imagination in ways that are just different from other forms of music/sound or art. That being said, no way do I want some bizarre package with dimensions like 20" x 20" x 4" clogging up my shelves.