Generational differences in the noise community

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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

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adult human wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:44 pm noise will always change with the times but the main thing is that real freaks afflicted with this disease will find each other regardless of the tools they use to do so.



This is the biggest take away on this post i couldn’t agree more
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

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adult human wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:44 pm noise will always change with the times but the main thing is that real freaks afflicted with this disease will find each other regardless of the tools they use to do so.
Beautiful words.
Streetcleaner2 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:58 pm there is actually a lot of 20 something year olds doing noise
Yeah, I get the sense that there may be more "younger" people involved at the moment than there has been in recent years. But perhaps it's the same age ratio as it has always been, just expanding to wider demographics. We're all young at some point. If noise was only populated by old heads it wouldn't be as vibrant as it has been of late.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by holy ghost »

I recall reading (on one of the now defunct noise forums) that (I'm paraphrasing here) noise was typically something you got into later in life - there's no way to objectively measure that as truth but from my experience I see way more young people who aren't cycling through grind/metal/punk before getting into noise. Same with a lot of other music as well, like what percentage of 20 year olds were into Milford Graves and Amon Duul II now vs 20 years ago?

Old people older than me might scoff at the easy availability of everything now but I think it's very good you don't have to be trolling mediafire links to hear the The Wire's "100 Records That Set The world On Fire".
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

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holy ghost wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:34 pm noise was typically something you got into later in life - there's no way to objectively measure that as truth but from my experience I see way more young people who aren't cycling through grind/metal/punk before getting into noise. Same with a lot of other music as well, like what percentage of 20 year olds were into Milford Graves and Amon Duul II now vs 20 years ago?


Last edited by Streetcleaner2 on Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

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Streetcleaner2 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:04 pm
holy ghost wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:34 pm noise was typically something you got into later in life - there's no way to objectively measure that as truth but from my experience I see way more young people who aren't cycling through grind/metal/punk before getting into noise. Same with a lot of other music as well, like what percentage of 20 year olds were into Milford Graves and Amon Duul II now vs 20 years ago?


i do believe noise typically is something you get into later in life. for me personally growing up hearing my gen x mother playing music like depeche mode/ kraftwerk & also exposing me to older styles of techno . i did have my fair share of enjoying grind and metal in my younger teens and eventually got more into the technology aspects and started listening to darker styles of techno and going to illegal warehouse raves all while listening to industrial bands like godflesh etc and also being into weirder aspects of sound such as musique concrete . i feel like personally i came into noise from the more technology side and perhaps spiritual/schizophrenic aspects of sound . getting into groups like psychic tv which had aspects of the occult and spirituality which has played a big role in my life growing up being deep into the occult and ideas of transhumanism , death and the afterlife .abusing substances like LSD and ketamine for spiritual gain / insight while at these sketchy illegal raves playing techno that some friends have said sounds so harsh it almost sound like metal or industrial.& also groups like spk who have aspects of mental health/schizophrenia. so for me noise resonates in a deeper way than any music has and i feel like sometimes noise goes beyond musical ideologies and perhaps can be spiritual outlets for some wild feelings and personal ideas (atrax morgue comes to mind) . but that’s just my experience with this . i’m glad i’ve found noise , for me it was organic . currently really into the power electronics side of noise and the use of technology and the sounds that entails
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by haldorsen »

Joie de la Blumpy wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:50 am That actually might be pretty good podcast fodder. Old fucks vs new breed (or whatever), maybe get one or two reps from each to just go off. Might be innerestin.

Perspective.
Yeah this way us ignorant dipshits can get schooled by you lol
Residual / RT wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:24 am Honestly I think it's because everything is available on the internet. Noise had a sort of mystique to it back when I started in the early 2000's, I didn't find any message boards and wasn't really in contact with anyone else into noise at the time. I just stumbled upon japanese noise thru noise rock and heavy psych bands, as well as Muslimgauze and old industrial and it was so unlike anything I'd heard that I got immediately hooked. I didn't really find the "scene" until years later.
Great point about the mystique, because that is such a huge part of the allure. Although I feel like it does still have a mystique, albeit it a different kind. Like stories and shit from guests on WCN add all of this lore and what feels like deep insider knowledge despite the fact that WCN is super easily accessible, and then a lot of the times you can find the old recordings they're talking about, but sometimes you can't. I love that stuff, and I love that it's presented in such a friendly format like a youtube podcast without losing its mystique. (also just put 2 and 2 together and noticed who you were and wanted to say your recent 3" cd on satatuhatta is really fuckin good)
murmur wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:54 am I wonder if this feeling has to do with the lack of people doing it at all.
I mean it very well could be, or maybe I just don't see them. Idk. But at least in the areas I lurk it seems to be a lot of late 20's and 30's
htp_systems wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 10:28 am Well you did make it to the "old people shit" eventually, so this forum and a lot of the other resources are there to be found. I think that a lot of young people are so used to having a newsfeed curate all of their content for them that this notion of looking beyond it at all has become somehow strange or radical. Have you tried connecting with people on discord? There are music and noise servers there with a lot of younger folks. I'm curious to know though, if you think that using something like instagram is better for connecting with people you want to talk to then why aren't you just using that?
I mean I'm on here because I like it, but I do also like IG and discord is okay. I wasn't ever complaining about forums, but every platform has good and bad things about them. I wish forums were more popular with the young noise scene, and frankly I just don't know what to do about it so I simply decided to put that here
adult human wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:44 pm Most of what I've read in this thread brings back memories of similar things I read in the glory days of Troniks and all the other forums. Then it was forums and noise moving onto the internet that represented instantaneous access to information that young people of the time understood and older people did not. There was certainly plenty of critique about what this meant for noise. Even just being able to find out details of bands through websites that would by today's standards seem totally scant was, to some, such a cause for disappointment and concern - a removal, I suppose, of an esoteric oral tradition that encapsulated what some of those older people at that time would have come up with and felt used to. Kids back then didn't know shit about having to WORK for their noise by catalogues and waiting for months for a tape to arrive and so on, kids today don't know about having to dig about for lame old defunct internet technologies!

Moving into a higher view of all this I wonder if it isn't quite significant that RRRon - someone who really fucked around in all this shit before most others - was a notable adopter of that balanced view whereby the old days were great but so could be the new - you're stuck with what's happening now and you can complain about things changing or you can stick your nose in and try to sniff out the young talent and support what they do. At least publicly, his stated view was that noise will always change with the times but the main thing is that real freaks afflicted with this disease will find each other regardless of the tools they use to do so. It's the nature of life and its normal. Maybe when you've a few more years on some of these other people and have seen things come and go a few more times you don't worry about it so much. We're all destined for a life of slow realisations that amazing things have come and gone without us really having thought to pay as much attention to them as we wished we had. I think most stories of any cultural activity that tell you the participants knew they were stuck into a treasure trove whilst they were still plundering from it are probably incomplete accounts of all the components at play.
This is really great input
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by Residual / RT »

haldorsen wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:01 pm Great point about the mystique, because that is such a huge part of the allure. Although I feel like it does still have a mystique, albeit it a different kind. Like stories and shit from guests on WCN add all of this lore and what feels like deep insider knowledge despite the fact that WCN is super easily accessible, and then a lot of the times you can find the old recordings they're talking about, but sometimes you can't. I love that stuff, and I love that it's presented in such a friendly format like a youtube podcast without losing its mystique. (also just put 2 and 2 together and noticed who you were and wanted to say your recent 3" cd on satatuhatta is really fuckin good)
It does still have that I guess, and I think many artists cultivate it by not having much of an online presence. But many do, I have dozens of noise contacts on my social media and it's really cool to be abled to connect for trades or just random banter with people all over the world. And yeah I don't think noise needs to be super esoteric to be interesting, but perhaps for someone just vaguely interested the stuff you can google in a few minutes is enough. Back when you had to see more effort it maybe kind of dragged you in more? I don't know, maybe i'm wrong. Still, I do think the reason young people aren't as into music in general is the fact that all culture is so easy to access, you can just pick and choose based on your interests without geographical or social limits that really defined what kids in the previous era would end up doing. And it's also why I don't age is important anymore. It doesn't matter if you're 20, 30 or 40 or older. We can all just be a part of noise culture and enjoy it, there's no need to separate us with abstract boundaries such as age really.

And thanks, I do think the CD turned out pretty good!
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by murmur »

holy ghost wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:34 pm cycling through grind/metal/punk before getting into noise.
This might be an interesting topic - route to noise. The one you mention here is definitely a common one, but certainly not the only one. I'm sure there are some interesting paths out there.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by Joie de la Blumpy »

adult human wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:44 pm Most of what I've read in this thread brings back memories of similar things I read in the glory days of Troniks and all the other forums. Then it was forums and noise moving onto the internet that represented instantaneous access to information that young people of the time understood and older people did not.
Yes okay, but let's be a bit careful about how we characterize the history. In my experience, the early days of the online were more the domain of the (slightly) elder set, because access (in the pre-internet BBS days*) would only be granted to people of a certain income bracket (or in the case of the kids, their dad's income bracket, same thing) or those of a degree of education, cause basically (a very few years later) all the unis were freely online where the rest of the shmucks had to pay for access. That's how I got onto the internet, as it is more or less still currently characterized- via the uni. There were guys like Pat from Skin Crime who clearly paid for his shit and some other folk obviously coming in on mom n dad's account and then the smattering of mofos coming in on their uni accounts. So making it necessarily and almost exclusively the domain of a select (and say it white middle class) set. And all the (more or less) irritating baggage that comes with that.

I do recall when RRRon first came online (some years later), he was one of the most enthusiastic adopters there were, moderating forums and shit despite being easily the elder statesman of the (online English speaking) noise sphere. (There were others but he'd be the one that also happened to come with the street cred so to speak.)

Things done changed I'd wager. Hence my interest in this idear of a "reality" (re/de)construction potentially being a thing. (Or potentially not, what do I know.) But let's say, if it were a thing, it would start with the range of options for interaction. I'd think there were fewer (options) at some point in the none too distant past, and that meant a slightly more limited range of means of re/de constructing a sense of what's what.

And yeah, the technology and the age. When I was a kid other kids be like, "Yo man, where do you hear this shit?" And I'm like, you heard of a radio mofo? And even when I got to Japan, years later, I'd hear some pretty fucked up (read: awesome) shit on NHK radio, nonetheless the local hardcore folk be like "Wow, we never get stuff like that on the radio over here." I'm like, yes you do. Pay attention.


* sorry, I should clarify that in the pre-internet BBS days access was granted to those (relative) few who had a computer and a modem, and an understanding of how the two worked
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by Residual / RT »

Was there noise content online during the BBS era, pre-HTML? Not really pre-internet though, since I doubt Joie was surfing the ARPANET in the 60s or 70s.

That's actually something I haven't seen addressed much, evolution of noise scene online. I mean Greh talked about the I<3Noise boards and such on an episode of Trashware I think, but that was early 2000's? I was downloading Merzbox and other japanoise from DC++ or SLSK around 2001-2002.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

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Residual / RT wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:44 am Was there noise content online during the BBS era, pre-HTML? Not really pre-internet though, since I doubt Joie was surfing the ARPANET in the 60s or 70s.
Right, well that's a good question. In my brain, pre-internet is pretty much the 80s, right. I mean in the popular culture. Just before the usenet really blew up, again, in the popular culture. (Perhaps it would vary considerably on a regional basis? Hard to say.) Still surprising sometimes the pockets of long-distanced inter-networked bubbles of hyper-intense activity you'd occasionally come across. But anything to do with CoolMusic(tm)? I don't recall word boo. There were other sorts of er media that people seemed rather more interested in uh getting out there so to speak.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

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Joie de la Blumpy wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:07 am In my experience, the early days of the online were more the domain of the (slightly) elder set, because access (in the pre-internet BBS days*) would only be granted to people of a certain income bracket (or in the case of the kids, their dad's income bracket, same thing) or those of a degree of education, cause basically (a very few years later) all the unis were freely online where the rest of the shmucks had to pay for access. That's how I got onto the internet, as it is more or less still currently characterized- via the uni. There were guys like Pat from Skin Crime who clearly paid for his shit and some other folk obviously coming in on mom n dad's account and then the smattering of mofos coming in on their uni accounts. So making it necessarily and almost exclusively the domain of a select (and say it white middle class) set. And all the (more or less) irritating baggage that comes with that.
yes, hate to rain on the parade with boring materialism, but of course economics comes before politics, material conditions shape culture, NOT the other way around. aesthetic preference and perception is locked to whatever person's individual experience: I got into noise at x time and enjoyed it and so those conditions are preferable. this is a blind spot that we need to remove. the "generational differences" are first, economic differences, and following from that, differences in society at large.
Joie de la Blumpy wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:55 am Don't kid yourselves. This topic is a lot bigger than noise,
if we could just post this reminder any time people start talking about stuff like this, that would be great
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

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Joie de la Blumpy wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:01 am
Residual / RT wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:44 am Was there noise content online during the BBS era, pre-HTML? Not really pre-internet though, since I doubt Joie was surfing the ARPANET in the 60s or 70s.
Long-distanced inter-networked bubbles of hyper-intense activity
My older brother somehow managed to get online with his Amiga in the early 1990's. He was making chiptune music, house music and digital art, and corresponded with like minded acne victims all over the world. This rendered us a phone bill on par with what you'd pay for a not too old car, which we couldn't pay and they shut us off the phone net for a couple of years. Anyway, I can image there must have been some interraction as early as that though, within noise circles?
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by adult human »

Yeah my bad people, the ‘early’ online stuff I’m talking about is very much a/the period when things began to happen en masse. A culture defined (retrospectively) by MySpace, PayPal buttons on geocities pages, p2p sharing, forums like troniks and noiseguide as opposed to things much older or more difficult to get to. Far from anything you needed to be a deep computers head to know about but still ancient and quickly outmoded compared to where we found ourselves 10 years later. Still different enough from the older ways of noise for some contingents to decry that it was becoming the norm. To anyone savvy enough to be getting into noise shit online significantly before this I’m sure it seems way too late to be thinking about too hard.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by ChicagoAnimal »

I think the primary differences between various generations of noise is that presently there is a huge amount of people that seem to reflect a really hobbyist approach to it in a way that is similar to, like, horror movie fans or basketball fanatics. I do not think that is a bad thing, but is more or less a sign of its age. Nostalgia becomes increasingly materialized and commodified in a specific way. Noise as an Art form with a "Big A" is less prevalent now. Also, noise representing a geographic region is even less prevalent. The network itself has also changed dramatically in a way that, in my opinion, reflects more of the hobbyist approach, most clearly demonstrated through Instagram habits (like haul purchase pictures, etc.). Deathbed Records is a label that I think reflects this generational difference, as it seems to be very kitschy-image driven and commerce-aware. I am not a fan of that label, but I in no way am demonizing this approach. It is what it is....
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

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murmur wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:29 am
holy ghost wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:34 pm cycling through grind/metal/punk before getting into noise.
This might be an interesting topic - route to noise. The one you mention here is definitely a common one, but certainly not the only one. I'm sure there are some interesting paths out there.
Pretty sure there's at least one thread here on "how did you get into this stuff?" that went on for a few pages.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by Scream & Writhe »

housepig wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:51 pm
murmur wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:29 am
holy ghost wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:34 pm cycling through grind/metal/punk before getting into noise.
This might be an interesting topic - route to noise. The one you mention here is definitely a common one, but certainly not the only one. I'm sure there are some interesting paths out there.
Pretty sure there's at least one thread here on "how did you get into this stuff?" that went on for a few pages.
Here she is: http://screamandwrithe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by FrenziedDestruction »

there were not many people my age when i got into noise as a teenager, i think thats probably pretty common and in fact it seems many more young people are aware of noise now then were back then as evidenced by somewhat widespread memes about noise, merzbow, etc. that seem to spread beyond the confines of the regular base. i think it being readily available on social media/youtube what have you has influenced this mostly as well as what i perceive to be a slightly more open minded approach to novelty in music among young people as a whole compared to when i was a kid.

i also think that part of why the noise scene leans older is a few different factors such as the cost of gear & physical media and the lack of a branding and aesthetic stylism typically popular with young people -- or to put it succinctly: you cant really dress "noise".
and its (mostly) not a cool young person thing to do like punk, metal etc. not to knock punk or metal which i of course love, and you do see noise vests/jackets etc from time to time.

the investment to get into noise is simultaneously smaller and bigger then it was previously, which is to say that you can of course do all the online things with forums and social media and free programs like vcv rack but also that the classic noise pedals such as the jason lamb dod ones are getting more expensive as is equipment for dubbing and listening to tapes.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by ChicagoAnimal »

FrenziedDestruction wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:17 pm there were not many people my age when i got into noise as a teenager, i think thats probably pretty common and in fact it seems many more young people are aware of noise now then were back then as evidenced by somewhat widespread memes about noise, merzbow, etc. that seem to spread beyond the confines of the regular base. i think it being readily available on social media/youtube what have you has influenced this mostly as well as what i perceive to be a slightly more open minded approach to novelty in music among young people as a whole compared to when i was a kid.

I think the phenomena of memes has brought a lot of sub-cultural material to be referenced in a syndicated way that simply wasn't the case 15 years ago when I was in high school, online, and also into noise music.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by Residual / RT »

FrenziedDestruction wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:17 pm the investment to get into noise is simultaneously smaller and bigger then it was previously, which is to say that you can of course do all the online things with forums and social media and free programs like vcv rack but also that the classic noise pedals such as the jason lamb dod ones are getting more expensive as is equipment for dubbing and listening to tapes.
I disagree with this, DOD Grunge pedals can still be found for less than 100 euros. The Digitech models are 40-50 euros, and while not as good they're good enough to make noise with. Behringer has good clones of Boss pedals that work well with noise, not to mention the chinese knock offs that are dirt cheap. Behringer mixers are really cheap and even older mixers with great preamps for noise are relatively cheap and readily available online. Behringer has all those great clones of classic noise synths and they're all ridiculously cheap.

Tape decks in good working order can be purchased for a lot cheaper than what they cost when tapes weren't obsolete as a format. If you follow the online marketplaces you routinely see working decks for around 50 euros for sale. Serviced decks are 100 euros and up. Tapes can be ordered in bulk online, and there's multiple pro dub plants if you don't want to go DIY. All easy to use, just upload files and receive tapes by mail.

It's never been this easy to acquire music equipment, nor this cheap. I guess same goes for physical media, it's never been this easy and plants offer smaller pressings that weren't available before. Basically for a few hundred bucks you can get all you need to make noise, industrial or whatever. It just depends are you interested enough to learn how.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by Joie de la Blumpy »

adult human wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:10 pm Yeah my bad people, the ‘early’ online stuff I’m talking about is very much a/the period when things began to happen en masse.
No no, you're good. I was very deliberately misrepresenting the when of your point for the sake of taking issue with the kids(always)=tech part of the thesis. It is in there, in parentheses, that I think I was trying to get back in with where I felt the OP was coming from. We've had plenty of conversations like these over the many years and the many forums, y'know where have we been / where are we going / blahblahblah / yadayadayada.

But I think none quite started quite like this. As in, by someone seemingly caught in the middle of this...and I hate myself for typing this but...shift of the er paradigm (there, said it). Someone who is apparently very sincerely like, er, guys, what the fuck? Here I am, caught in the fucking middle. What am I supposed to make of this? And for that I truly salute the OP. Cause it (the er paradigm or whateverthefuck) has apparently shifted, to the point where it may be possible to say, with little more than my usual lowgrade paranoid schizo fear of contradiction, that, the kids, well, it would seem that, the kids are alright. Uh...they are, right? RIGHT?

So a question then as to whether the current kids will take this power, and it is a power, a legit power, away from their kids or whether the cat's permanently out of the bag. Assuming we're not all converted into datameat by some malignant AI before the next gen gets there! <in his best HJ Simpson> Mmm. Datameat.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by Joie de la Blumpy »

Capers wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:36 am
Joie de la Blumpy wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:01 am
Residual / RT wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:44 am Was there noise content online during the BBS era, pre-HTML? Not really pre-internet though, since I doubt Joie was surfing the ARPANET in the 60s or 70s.
Long-distanced inter-networked bubbles of hyper-intense activity
My older brother somehow managed to get online with his Amiga in the early 1990's. He was making chiptune music, house music and digital art
So that's what he called it, eh?
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by Bubble-Congeries »

Any platform that is rendered functionally useless from a desktop PC without relying on stupid work-arounds gets a hard pass from me.

I'm set in my ways. I guess people who didn't come up with desktop/GUI/peripherals are set in theirs too. I do realize that accessing forums in a web browser and pecking out essays on smartphones isn't the most streamlined and graceful experience.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by Joie de la Blumpy »

Capers wrote: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:36 am Anyway, I can image there must have been some interraction as early as that though, within noise circles?
Very possibly! But at least based on my experience I'd have called that a mugs game along a disappearing curve. We're talking miniscule percentiles of still more miniscule percentiles. At least, again, from my admittedly myopic experience searching long and hard (and quite vocally may I add) and never finding squat, never more than nada approaching a single hit, noise-ish-wise. Was way WAY easier to hit the mark just posting a fucking letter.

As for the story of your poor brother, again it could be a regional thing. Where I was, if you knew your way around you'd connect to a hub that was connected to a hub (of possibly of a hub, of a...), where everything was inter-exchanged (via freely available software) at approximately 4-5am, every night. Never spent a thin dime.
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Re: Generational differences in the noise community

Post by Joie de la Blumpy »

Joie de la Blumpy wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:20 pm We're talking miniscule percentiles of still more miniscule percentiles.
Or, howzabout. Fast forward twelve years. Hit Japan, late 90s. I want to promote a noise show, and based on my experience back home I ask Yoshida/Govt Alpha which online forums n such I should be hitting. He chortles and says something like, "I don't think you're going to be hitting any noise people online." As in, no one who would give a noise shit would have been online. Not a one. (bar say your occasional Koji Tano, who frankly, as a savant of the online world would simply not count .) You want people to show up you gotta do it the old fashioned way. Which, as it turns out, was way more fun...
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