Time signatures in noise

[outdoorhorseshrine]

After a recent show, one of my friends remarked to me that all the sets were played in 4/4 time. His comment kind of caught me off guard because I always regarded noise as being without a specified time signature, let alone in 4/4 time. I can sometimes pick up on a rhythm in noise (I would actually consider it hyper-rhythmic if that makes sense), but I never thought of noise as following a consistent "1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and" beat. I joked to him saying, "at least tell me I'm not on the ones and threes." I would like to dismiss his comment and say that it doesn't really matter, but I feel like subconsciously we all operate on certain "time signatures" because of our cultural upbringing.

What are your thoughts? Do you consider noise to follow a certain time signature (4/4, 6/8, etc.)? Is this a cultural phenomenon?

[junkyardshaman]

as the old saying goes; "all music is in 4/4 if you stop counting like a nerd!", hah.

I'd guess it mostly comes down to the gear and machines people use, if you don't change the beat, that usually is probably 4/4. Some modular stuff usually goes to 5/4 or 7/4. Personally I can't think why would it matter at all, but I guess I am not "that sort of person" to begin with.

[Residual / RT]

how did your friend come to this conclusion? I mean time signatures are dependent on context. You can count a birdsong or an engine running and come up with a time signature for it, but it doesn't mean that it's actually in any specific time signature, it's just that your brain found a rhythm. we humans are just really good at seeing and hearing patterns even when they don't exist. a claim such as "harsh noise is usually in 4/4 time" doesn't mean anything.

[junkyardshaman]

yeah, exactly! To clarify I was thinking of something more power eletroney perhaps with some steady beat or other machine induced pulse, abstract sound is just abstract sound.

[outdoorhorseshrine]

I mean time signatures are dependent on context

I like this sentiment! I think that's partially what I was suggesting when I said it's cultural. We impose a time signature onto what we listen to and what we listen to imposes its time signature on us. I also realize I am opening up a can of worms when this question is asked of an entire genre.

And just for additional context, my friend isn't into harsh noise per se. He does play the drums and listens to a lot of 90s-2000s alternative/indie rock (ex: Silver Jews).

[Residual / RT]

I mean time signatures are dependent on context

I like this sentiment! I think that's partially what I was suggesting when I said it's cultural. We impose a time signature onto what we listen to and what we listen to imposes its time signature on us. I also realize I am opening up a can of worms when this question is asked of an entire genre.

Well, I mean 4/4 can be thought of as 2/2, 8/8 or four bars of 4/4 with a variation on the fourth cycle can be written in notation as 16/4. Whatever makes sense in the musical context, really! 9/4 can be understood as either 9/4 or a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 5/4. It's all about context and intent, not an inherent quality of a piece. So, your friend found a pulse in harsh noise. Any time signature that's mathematically correct can be assigned, but is ultimately meaningless since it's not needed to perform or understand it. To me it seems like your friend was trying to flex by making a statement like that for music that time signatures don't really apply to, or are meaningless in the context harsh noise is performed.

[December Man]

I feel bad for your friend. Prior to my involvement in noise, I spent more time that I care to admit with people who spent shows counting time signatures and being so gynecologically focused on music that they would trash so much stuff and then listen to the worst dogshit and say things like, "I really just like when people can play their instruments well." What a way to go through life. Sad, and also a weird flex on his part.

[December Man]

Also, OP, I hope I don't sound like I am annoyed with you for starting this topic. This is literally the first time I have ever posted anything negative on an online forum in my life so it is super exciting. AND I think stuff like this is worth discussing, even if I strongly disagree with your friend.

[Atrophist]

The only way this comment would make sense to me is if every artist in that show based their set around samplers, drum machine etc, programmed intte most perfunctory way. Which I’m guessing wasn’t the case?

[outdoorhorseshrine]

Also, OP, I hope I don't sound like I am annoyed with you for starting this topic. This is literally the first time I have ever posted anything negative on an online forum in my life so it is super exciting. AND I think stuff like this is worth discussing, even if I strongly disagree with your friend.

No not at all. What's the point of a forum without some healthy disagreement? Actually, the friend was highly interested in the show and showed appreciation for it, although maybe being too cerebral. Maybe it was just a weird flex and him trying to "galaxy brain" the show.

The only way this comment would make sense to me is if every artist in that show based their set around samplers, drum machine etc, programmed intte most perfunctory way. Which I’m guessing wasn’t the case?

It wasn't. I didn't see any samplers/sequencers but I'm really new to modular/eurorack, so I might have missed something. In his defense, I don't think he was referring to a literal clock that was determining the time signature/rhythm, but rather a "feeling" and seeing "movements" within each set that referenced 4/4 time. I think that goes back to how the audience perceives it, regardless of what the artist intends for it be.

[Residual / RT]

It wasn't. I didn't see any samplers/sequencers but I'm really new to modular/eurorack, so I might have missed something. In his defense, I don't think he was referring to a literal clock that was determining the time signature/rhythm, but rather a "feeling" and seeing "movements" within each set that referenced 4/4 time. I think that goes back to how the audience perceives it, regardless of what the artist intends for it be.

He's showing fundamental misunderstanding of what time signatures are for. Harsh noise, unless specifically written as such, isn't probably in any time signature. If you were to notate a harsh noise piece, then you would need to assign a time signature for it (ridiculous thought but let's go with it). In order to actually find out what time signature works best, e.g. what time signature a piece of music is in, you would actually need to descontruct and essentially notate it. Analyse the the whole piece and see how it's most sensibly divided into a time signature. So it's all meaningless in this context.

Important question: was he high? If yes he naturally gets a pass

[outdoorhorseshrine]

Important question: was he high? If yes he naturally gets a pass

Funnily enough, yes.

[Bubble-Congeries]

I do think there is a tendency, even in noise, and even for non-musicians like myself, to unconciously time transitions according to the psychological scaffolding of a "beat", unless consciously trying to avoid it. I think it's also potentially very easy to recognize a pulse in things like HNW, if only in one's imagination... A bit like looking at TV static and suddenly seeing a bunch of spinning wheels, like the little bits of black, white and grey are mincing around in small circles (Maybe that's just me?).

Being high definitely could contribute a lot to this sense, I'd imagine.

[housepig]

one tangent that this made me think of - watching Custodian sets, I always felt a distinct pulse that felt controlled and intentional in a way that set it apart for me from most other cut-up harsh noise I hear, and I think it comes from the fact that Jon / Custodian is an amazingly accomplished drummer, separate from his noise work. you can find / imply patterns or rhythms in anything, as a previous poster said, but his performances always had a feeling of precision, control and timing that most others lack.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

Offhand I'd call the idea ludicrous but there again you'll often see people headbanging at noise shows. Heck I've done it myself, likely quite a lot in fact if maybe only somewhat conscious of the fact. Probably goes back to that cultural conditioning thing, monkey see monkey do, etc etc, but it'd be rare I'd say to encounter a headbanger in full polyrhythmic mode. And then there's that thing in our body that regulates everything to a pretty staid pulse. And that (24-hour) body clock that I do believe is also divisible by four. And assorted neural oscillations that would sync with certain subsonics. Heavy duty crunch-blurt might line up with alpha (8-12 Hz) waves, say. Could easily imagine "feeling" that under the influence of one or another substance.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

Offhand I'd call the idea ludicrous but there again you'll often see people headbanging at noise shows. Heck I've done it myself, likely quite a lot in fact if maybe only somewhat conscious of the fact. Probably goes back to that cultural conditioning thing, monkey see monkey do, etc etc, but it'd be rare I'd say to encounter a headbanger in full polyrhythmic mode. And then there's that thing in our body that regulates everything to a pretty staid pulse. And that (24-hour) body clock that I do believe is also divisible by four. And assorted neural oscillations that would sync with certain subsonics. Heavy duty crunch-blurt might line up with alpha (8-12 Hz) waves, say. Could easily imagine "feeling" that under the influence of one or another substance.

Rereading this spew and wondering if I were somehow suggesting that all sound (or sound as waves, oscillations, pulses) could at some level be drawn as 4/4 time.

It's sad, isn't it? But this is what listening to noise does to people.

[adult human]

It's all interpretation I suppose but time signatures seem more like one way to describe rhythms, pulses or whatever, not some cold hard objective reality about them. Forgetting Noise for a minute, there's enough instances in whatever 'music' is considered to be across cultures, time and geography wherein 4/4 or whatever else makes no sense, even when it could be far more readily applied to those sounds. I'm thinking here of notations I've seen depicting Japanese flute music or Hindu Classical music, for example, which seem more about tracking how notes and are shaped move rather than defining their meter by standards of beats over bars. I'm no expert, of course, and this could all be wrong.

So even though I'd say it's in likelihood a bit of a stretch and worthy of a degree of ridicule*, I don't suppose there is any reason that it's incorrect if someone is hearing 3/4, 4/4, 7/8 or something when listening to Masonna. A caveat would be that when it comes to Power Electronics that the vocals definitely instil a sense of timing more concrete and measurable by these standards. There's an interesting bit of research to be done by someone who isn't me analysing vocal patterns in a wide selection of Power Electronics songs and picking out the similarities, of which there are many. Another bit of evidence for that genre being 95% predicated on boys in Batman outfits copying each other's moves I'd bet.


*Though no more than guys like us deserve for thinking totally annoying environmental or mechanical noises sound cool and 'can be music'.

[luciferjonez]

Not everyone "gets it". That being said lets look at it from this perspective: Your friend stuck around and listened to your set intently enough to give you that critique whether positive or not. Noise music has a way of chasing people out of a room, so the fact that your friend stayed is a testament to you putting on a compelling set.

[chryptusrecords]

Rereading this spew and wondering if I were somehow suggesting that all sound (or sound as waves, oscillations, pulses) could at some level be drawn as 4/4 time.

It's sad, isn't it? But this is what listening to noise does to people.

Yes, at high enough volume levels, and with slight movements of the head, pulsation and apparent rhythm appear as blood pumps through the ears in time with the heart beat. broad spectrum noise appears to be 'attenuated' by variations in hearing position, this is definitely a real phenomenon. "time" itself is pretty arbitrary and just depends on when you start counting, but "pulse" is "real" even if it's created by subjective phenomena

[shrouded.in.antiquity]

It seems more than likely that your friend was just messing with you, although maybe there was some sound within your set that he really latched onto. To echo many of the sentiments of what others have said, a time signature is entirely conditional on context in which it is being perceived. It is also affected by other factors such as tempo. if you were to take a measure of 4/4 with a half note on counts 1 and 3, and took a measure of 2/2 with half notes on counts 1 and 2, they would sound exactly the same. I think it would be entirely possible to take a track from recent output by The Rita for example, and to listen to it in small chunks and notate where the hits fall in a sequence. You could specify your notation as 4/4 at the outset and from there simply keep track of where the "notes" occur within the piece across its duration. However this really begs the question, why would you want to do that? The purpose of time signatures, and more broadly music notation in general is to create a set of instructions so that a sonic idea can be replicated by another performer. Thinking of The Rita's recent work with Ted Byrnes, you could orchestrate a "note for note" cover of one of those really minimal tracks with just a snare drum, using different parts of the drum head to achieve different pitches. You could spend hours upon hours transcribing the audio and then countless more hours internalizing the "flow" of the piece to be replicated with at least some degree of precision. But again, why would you want to do that?

[Bubble-Congeries]

It seems more than likely that your friend was just messing with you

I considered as much, that said friend might be pulling some deadpan routine. But once "being high" came up, I knew that all bets were off.

[bobMarinelli]

SHORT ANSWER - No, not all noise is in 4/4.


LONG ANSWER - For the last few years I've been spending my nights banging on the drums reading sheet music, so "time signature" caught my eye.

Obvious Disclaimer - I wasn't at the show, so what do I know? That being said . . .

Not all noise is in 4/4. Just think of all the cut-up edited stuff. it's a stream of different tempos and time signatures. And the spastic stuff I used to do is in free time. I'd think a lot of noise is. Right now in my head I can hear banging, silence, electricity firing up, all without any discernible rhythm. that's kindof what makes it interesting.

The loop-based stuff, I can see coming out in 4/4. perhaps not all of it, but it is natural tendency in western stuff.

as far as a person using an internal clock and putting it on top of the sound to try to make sense of it, I'm not qualified to speak on that. but it makes sense. the brain looks for patterns, and if it finds one it may just slap a 4/4 label on it and move on, even if the label is misleading.

now lately, I've been listening to some stuff lately that is SO rhythmically stable that I've been able to turn on the electronic kit, and play along with it. that stuff has been in 4/4. some of it is really fun noise (listener friendly), but because it IS so god damned rhythmically stable, I had to do something to entertain myself.

Old Me used to have two rules about "what constitutes 'real' Noise!" don't worry fellas, I was watching the gate!

1. - no discernible rhythm
2. - no respect for the conventional rules of pitch, to the point that it's best to avoid any of the frequencies that is also a note. if you found yourself accidentally playing a note, it's best to get out of there quick!

of course when I heard K2 using a drum machine, he absolutely got a pass! Lol.

[ChicagoAnimal]

Interesting topic.

I think just about ten years ago, maybe from 2012-2019, there was a lot of noise, industrial, adjacent genre-stuff that was widely distributed and good visibility that coincided with an explosion of gear being made more available at a somewhat decent price. Elektron samplers, sequencers, drum machines - all stuff that is pretty much geared towards conventional 4/4 electronic music.

I wonder about all those Puce Mary tapes from 2013-2015, I think she's mostly "in 4/4" but I wonder if she does stuff in different measures? I do not know how to count that stuff, tbh.

[Residual / RT]

Interesting topic.

I think just about ten years ago, maybe from 2012-2019, there was a lot of noise, industrial, adjacent genre-stuff that was widely distributed and good visibility that coincided with an explosion of gear being made more available at a somewhat decent price. Elektron samplers, sequencers, drum machines - all stuff that is pretty much geared towards conventional 4/4 electronic music.

As an owner of multiple Elektron devices (I've owned 5-6 different boxes, currently own three) I'd say that's not really true. With the amount of randomization and freedom of modulation they offer, they're really geared towards versatility and experimentation rather than conventional electronic music. Like, an 808 is geared towards conventional electronic music (other way around I guess, but you I hope you get my point) with it's simplistic and rigid sequencer. The Elektron sequencer is so expertly integrated into each machine, be it synthesis or sampling that you can make whatever you want with it: rigid 4-on-the-floor dance music, generative ambient, glitchy IDM, randomized patterns, polyrhythms, odd time signatures etc. Analog Rytm for example is a pretty capable sampler as well as a great analog drum machine, and it combines both worlds seamlessly. Octatrack is basically made for experimentation with sampling, still capable of stuff no other hardware sampler can do. The crossfader and scenes is a stroke of genius. It's true that they excel at techno, but to say they're geared for it is like saying a guitar is geared for playing power chords because it's easier than barre chords or whatever.

I'll admit I'm a fanboy, but Elektron is or at least used to be wholle unique and forward thinking company.