Self Releasing/Starting Labels

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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Scream & Writhe »

turbonasty wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:38 pm you can look at it with plenty of pros and cons, but self releasing something before going on a tour was one of the big pros for me. you're able to to retain all copies of whatever edition you think is appropriate, not just leave with a few artist copies of the material - especially if it is the material you are actually touring with.
This is definitely a good move. “Tour editions” or short run tour-exclusives can be very helpful on the road. Used to always try to have something that was tour specific when going out with previous bands, or at least have copies of an upcoming release for sale on the road before the actual release date.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by W.K. »

housepig wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:04 pm
W.K. wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:46 pm People are still using Gimp? Jesus Christ.

Using Gimp for artwork is like using Audacity for a audio project with multiple stems. Do yourself a favour and save up for something like Affinity Photoshop or something that's at least not as archaic as Gimp. Yeh you can learn Gimp but it will save a lot of headache and frustration.
I used Photoshop for years, but I'm not going to maintain a Windows box just to use Photoshop, nor do I want to get sucked into the perpetual subscription loop of never actually owning software, just renting it.

I'm curious, what functions do you need to put together a j-card that are so impossible with GIMP?
housepig wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:22 pm The best tool gets out of your way. 99% of the audience doesn't care what tool you used to make the art, they care about how it affects them. I'm just surprised at how much vitriol there seems to be aimed at GIMP; no one is forcing you to use it, and some of us work in it just fine.
Sure but Affinity (https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/photo/) only cost about €50 and often goes for sale. If you are working with multiple layers and do more complex editing its much more flexible, and the interface is much less clunky than that of GIMP.

Anyway use what you want I don't care, but why not use a better tool for the job?
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by housepig »

W.K. wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:58 am Anyway use what you want I don't care, but why not use a better tool for the job?
because "better" is so subjective. I tried using Premiere for years for video editing, and got nothing done because I just couldn't wrap my head around the workflow and operation of it. When Sony Vegas added video editing capabilities, I switched to that and was immediately able to get results, and complete projects, even though it wasn't a "professional" solution or "anywhere near as good / full featured" as Premiere - because it made sense to me and I found the work flow extremely intuitive and easy.

The "better tool" is the tool that is comfortable to use.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by W.K. »

Sure.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Residual / RT »

I now use Gimp at work (used to use Adobe Suite for years when I worked in the graphic industry) and it's almost as good as Photoshop when you get used to it. Same tools, same functionality. Maybe if you go really deep and look at the colour channels & more advanced lighting tools etc. that new photoshop has, Gimp can't perform as well but for easy stuff like making print-quality tape covers (or just basic event posters, flyers etc.) it's more than good enough. Quirky, maybe but it's not like Photoshop is super easy to use either.

I guess I'm saying, either pirate Photoshop or use Gimp.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by minimal.impact »

leuksi wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:49 am - Dub a test tape first, listen to it thoroughly. If there's something wrong with the sound you can always adjust that.
- Go through every tape you dub. Listen to a few seconds here and there, check that L/R channel levels are fine.
Both good points. I saw some post from a label recently about how they were listening to each of the 100 tapes of a particular run, and it made me wonder how they managed to find the time to do so. Makes more sense that they would have only been listening to a few seconds from each side.
Tribe Tapes wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 12:08 pm If you’re releasing for other artists, do the best job you can. ... Don’t do small editions — strive for at least 50 copies of each release, and be generous when it comes time to mail artist copies.
This rhetoric on small editions comes up all the time. A lot of the arguments for smaller runs I've seen usually revolve around erring on the side of caution, projected interest in a release, not wanting to have too many unsold tapes, etc. All things I can agree with, but any release will of course benefit from having wider circulation, which at the end of the day is partly a numbers game. The jump from say 40/50 to 100 can seem like a huge investment at first.

Does one put out a heap of a release in the hopes that it will spread virally? Or do you do a smaller, targeted release?
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Residual / RT »

If you have the patience and a good tape deck, self releasing is cool because you can fine tune how hot you want to dub the tape. Pro plants always dub them too quiet.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Tribe Tapes »

minimal.impact wrote: Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:32 am This rhetoric on small editions comes up all the time. A lot of the arguments for smaller runs I've seen usually revolve around erring on the side of caution, projected interest in a release, not wanting to have too many unsold tapes, etc. All things I can agree with, but any release will of course benefit from having wider circulation, which at the end of the day is partly a numbers game. The jump from say 40/50 to 100 can seem like a huge investment at first.

Does one put out a heap of a release in the hopes that it will spread virally? Or do you do a smaller, targeted release?
I've actually changed my opinion on this, somewhat since my original post. Firstly, I want to reiterate that the general guideline I suggested of doing at least 50 copies of a release, is applicable mostly to labels releasing established artists -- furthermore, this is assuming the release at-hand isn't making use of any costly, extravagant packaging. There is no bona fide "right" amount of copies to put out for a release. For self-produced tapes, I see it as entirely just for even bigger names within noise, to issue a low-run cassette. Any accusations of manufactured scarcity I find silly and nitpicky. Just write the damn artists and ask for a dub!

I've put out releases from established artists, in editions of 75 that still have some copies in stock months later, but then more obscure choices for productions on the label will quickly sell out a run of 100 based on positive word-of-mouth alone. On a related note (maybe - maybe not), it's wise to build relationships with distributors before jumping into editions of significantly more than 50.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Bubble-Congeries »

Don't be afraid to make CDr's.

The format is a lot more resilient than it's given credit for being when managed correctly.

Also, in terms of presentation, the medium is only as cheap and disposable as you treat it to be.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Residual / RT »

Bubble-Congeries wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:45 am Don't be afraid to make CDr's.

The format is a lot more resilient than it's given credit for being when managed correctly.

Also, in terms of presentation, the medium is only as cheap and disposable as you treat it to be.
Oh man, couldn't disagree more. I just think it's the worst format for music and the only redeeming quality is that it's cheap to make, which I think shouldn't be a factor when by spending just a little bit more you can make a small run of tapes. I just really dislike CDr's, hah!

I just declined a few trades of releases I would have loved to own because they were CDr's.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Bubble-Congeries »

I totally understand the feeling, to be fair, because I felt the same way after years of seeing half-baked, dashed out CDr releases.

But they were really redeemed in my eyes when I realized that I've got stuff from as far back as 1998 that I can still get flawless rips from with EAC, and that most or all of the ones that won't play right any more (or in some cases never did) have a number of factors in common (cheap discs, questionable packaging/embellishment techniques and materials, unknown but dubious burning routines/settings), and that even these I can still make "functional" rips from. Can't produce logs without errors, but I can't *hear* errors either...

But please, no Sharpie on Memorex CDrs from Walmart! <:)
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Remi »

I love tapes madly but there's no sense getting any of them pro-dubbed in big quantities nowadays considering you can produce pro-Cds for half of what they cost and sell these for twice as much. Yeah, you produce 200 CDs and not 80 or 100 tapes. But as a label it's your duty to make sure the artist you release gets widespread distribution and gets heard by as many people as possible (or what's the point of running your label then?) and as an artist it's your duty to release the best music possible instead of polluting the market with half-assed releases or releases whose life in the distribution market is non-existent. If you only want your friends to hear your stuff, make private tapes.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by k.p.g »

W.K. wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:46 pm People are still using Gimp? Jesus Christ.

Using Gimp for artwork is like using Audacity for a audio project with multiple stems. Do yourself a favour and save up for something like Affinity Photoshop or something that's at least not as archaic as Gimp. Yeh you can learn Gimp but it will save a lot of headache and frustration.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by D345 »

k.p.g wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 9:03 pm
W.K. wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:46 pm People are still using Gimp? Jesus Christ.

Using Gimp for artwork is like using Audacity for a audio project with multiple stems. Do yourself a favour and save up for something like Affinity Photoshop or something that's at least not as archaic as Gimp. Yeh you can learn Gimp but it will save a lot of headache and frustration.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by SS1535 »

Audacity is the best and I will love it forever.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by chryptusrecords »

Remi wrote: Thu Mar 16, 2023 5:38 pm I love tapes madly but there's no sense getting any of them pro-dubbed in big quantities nowadays considering you can produce pro-Cds for half of what they cost and sell these for twice as much.
Yes, in addition to edition size limitations, so-called "pro" dubbing of cassettes is totally hit or miss, I've never worked with a big pressing plant personally, but I've heard plenty of horror stories and received many dull and quiet dubs from a place where they obviously didn't know how to handle noise for the medium. The professional plants will not care to make sure your dubs are loud enough, they will simply avoid hitting the red out of habit.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Tinnitustimulus »

Gimp has gotten better over the years.

I was thinking of starting a label again but the local tape/CDR supplier I depended on for years (NRS) just closed down recently. I really like doing the design aspect and cutting the paper repeatedly in a mindless fashion. But the overhead now is like what, $250 for an edition of 50 for a tape? I'm not sure how to handle that exactly. Can anybody accurately say what the overhead a release is?

The thing is I've been doing this shit for 19 years and most want tapes the entire time. I remember a few years back explaining to a collector that some of the best HNW in its heyday was in CD or CDRs and not tapes. He refused to get the Militant Wall Cdrs, which I suppose quite a few have gotten reissued into tapes and other things since these days, but I thought that was rather silly. When I was on tour last year with CDs, tapes and records, the only thing I really had left was CDs. I will say things have gotten better for CDrs since the spray paint days, and thankful for that.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Residual / RT »

Tinnitustimulus wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:00 pm Gimp has gotten better over the years.
Yeah for sure, I use it at work and it's honestly very usable and a good tool, especially for being completely free. With GIMP available I wouldn't pay for an image editing software unless I was a serious professional, and I was in the industry for many years when I was younger. I could have probably done the job with GIMP and modern free tools back then, even if Adobe CS is a lot better.
Tinnitustimulus wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:00 pm I was thinking of starting a label again but the local tape/CDR supplier I depended on for years (NRS) just closed down recently. I really like doing the design aspect and cutting the paper repeatedly in a mindless fashion. But the overhead now is like what, $250 for an edition of 50 for a tape? I'm not sure how to handle that exactly. Can anybody accurately say what the overhead a release is?
Don't know about the states but pro-dubbed tapes with pro-printed covers for 100 or less tapes costs around 3-4 euros per unit here. So not quite 250 bucks for 50 tapes, bust sill a lot more than 10 years ago.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Bubble-Congeries »

Scarcity is only "manufactured" by disclosing the quantity produced! ;)

I specifically opt not to disclose quantities anymore, partly because I don't want to "manufacture" any kind of hype via scarcity, but also because I'm really fucking lazy. So it frees me from having to overmanufacture quantities as some kind of expected obligation to "the scene" in order to avoid accusations of "manufactured scarcity".

I really think people have the wrong idea more often than not when it comes to sub-20 runs put out by literal nobodies who are just happy if anyone at all likes or cares about their stuff without them actively trying to move units. As soon as this stuff becomes a second job, it's no longer fun for me.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by December Man »

Bubble-Congeries wrote: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:22 pm Scarcity is only "manufactured" by disclosing the quantity produced! ;)

I specifically opt not to disclose quantities anymore, partly because I don't want to "manufacture" any kind of hype via scarcity, but also because I'm really fucking lazy. So it frees me from having to overmanufacture quantities as some kind of expected obligation to "the scene" in order to avoid accusations of "manufactured scarcity".

I really think people have the wrong idea more often than not when it comes to sub-20 runs put out by literal nobodies who are just happy if anyone at all likes or cares about their stuff without them actively trying to move units. As soon as this stuff becomes a second job, it's no longer fun for me.
I think this pretty much accurately sums up every label or project I've ever done. I've been really hyped when anyone at all has been into it, and when it ceases to become escapism it just isn't my thing anymore. Occasionally I've put out stuff for more "known" entities where I was like, "I've made too few!" but there has only been once or twice when folks complained.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by MND »

I use Duplication.ca templates and they work perfectly when I print them locally, so you can use whatever image software to edit the templates with your design and print them at your local place, I do the same with tape stickers, if you need any help feel free to send me a message, I don't mind helping.

As for the other questions, mainly the financial one, better have a job that pay for your bills, because there is not much money to do, while some releases will sold out and can pay for the next releases, there are others that won't do much and it will be a loss when it comes to money.

Good luck with whatever you end up doing.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by adult human »

Some interesting comments about navigating format choices when hoping to put things out. I think as long as there is physical media it'll be impossible to please everyone. For every tape fanatic there is someone who wont touch them. For every cheap CD reissue there will be an expensive 2xLP reissue that many will prefer. Within all this we'll see back and forth with some formats and their popularity. I observe that this is probably driven more by labels and artists who pig headedly pursue what they think is the best option more so than those who aim for what they think the most people might want to have. When Troniks and Helicopter began putting out pro CD batches on something like a monthly basis it created assertions from some that CD was 'back' which, if true, begs the question of where it went and why all it took to resuscitate it was...well, nothing. Besides someone producing and selling some which is, I think, the way things were done prior. It might be another one of these things due to a lack of visible conversation or documentation that noise appears to operate in a series of set ways only until someone does something slightly different to show people that isn't so. I should think that overall the main listenership is still more or less willing to take on all formats? Interested to know if there are any strong disagreements with this.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by Residual / RT »

I think each format has its strenghts and weaknesses which both the artist and label should consider when deciding what format to use. Tapes have a distinct sonic quality, they slowly degrade over time but in an appealing way that fits noise very well (as opposed to CD-R's that just stop working). So old tapes will sound quite different from new ones. Then CD's are just a means to save and transfer the contents to the listener, no special qualities outside of uniform quality and perfectly neutral sound. Vinyl is the most durable, lasts for decades or even 100 years or more if kept well. Has the most distinctive sound I think and absolutely needs professional mastering.

I don't think it should just be a personal preference of anyone when choosing the format. I personally enjoy tape and CD for noise, vinyl is so expensive that I don't really consider it to be sensible for the vast majority of releases.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by junkyardshaman »

I actually found out years later that I had half-accidentally started a label for my releases, when I tried to search something else and noticed that in discogs some of this stuff was actually put up as such;
https://www.discogs.com/label/1529089-Zen-Filth
It made me feel strangely good, although the difference between "label" and "self-released by artist" is only the fact whether I remembered to scribble the small ZEN FILTH logo on some corner of the tape or CDr or not, hah. I can't remember when I started doing that but probably when I started making tapes by myself, so 2013,14 maybe?
so it is not a real label, but something for my own releases. But there is an ethos I think, as I don't think my music is neither noise nor music (depending on the listener it's always either this and that, usually too much of whatever it is the listener doesn't like I guess), but it is certainly sound and it exists, it is my part of my practice and meditation both in creating the music and the artwork and they are all individual and unique works of art as they are, so it is this sort of... zen filth. Sound for the sake of the flow of time.

I have listened to especially White Centipede Noise podcast and everyone has been bashing the method of just making few copies of something, and I kind of get it, but also feel it doesn't concern the things I do, because nobody wants these anyhow. And I don't mind too much, I don't need to sell anything to anyone unless I am starving for too long of a time. If I want to make bigger batches of something, I'll ask some real label to help, but if it is just doing few copies by myself, I am more than capable of doing that and I enjoy it a lot, every single step of the way! I am just grateful when somebody wants to have something and I am really lucky to have few fanatics around the world who are kind enough to keep me alive when I need it the most.

On the format, I'd like to do more tapes again but all my recorders (no decks, just walkmans bought from junkshops) appear to start getting old and the engine noise gets louder. I did one release last week and I was on the verge of do I even release this or not as it was even more lofi than the original thing, but then actually ended up loving it more because of that and thought if I should digitalize that and release it as some other thing of its own, but figured it is a "treat" for those few who bought the tape, hah.
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Re: Self Releasing/Starting Labels

Post by adult human »

Residual / RT wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:10 am (as opposed to CD-R's that just stop working)
Yeah it's a real shame. We live in an age where we could totally fix the things that went wrong with CD-R as an invention but there is obviously no commercial incentive to continue developing it. I feel like if there weren't so many people in noise who got stung by degraded discs there could entirely be a renaissance in CD-R usage and aesthetics. I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't want to see that but personally I'd be quite into it. When I was playing Deep Grey's Mona Lisa Smile recently it made me realise that I totally miss the vibe and feel of scrappy, homemade discs that are dangerous to play in your stereo hah. We have such cheap access to proper glass mastered CDs now that it seems moot to bother with CD-R a lot of the time but, like cassette, there is something about it as an entity of quick, underground, DIY production that perhaps never got fully explored. We have had cassettes remain a constant since they started but we've also seen it take on new life at the hands of artists or labels who are newer to the tech. I can't be alone in being of an age where I only really embraced cassette BECAUSE it was a format I could get noise releases from people I wanted to hear on? The same is probably less true of CD-R for a lot of reasons. An 18 year old kid finding out about Noise now is far more likely to dub a tape than do a CD-R. Maybe this is all ok but I just miss it a little bit as what was once an expression of a completely underground creativity. I know it made things easier for shitty, thoughtless releases but what else is new? I think there was probably proportionately as much vinyl pressed in the mid/late 00's containing totally sucky disposable shite as CD-R! Does anyone know what I mean here? It's a feeling that is quite hard to accurately describe.
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