Dislikes and turnoffs

[TYHJP]

i don't really understand why some seem to get so touchy and defensive when someone else says they don't like the thing you like... i read the OP as a mere personal preference, that shouldn't affect how you feel about the artist/stuff.

i'm not going to poke the M.A. beehive any more than this: i don't care for the guy either. i (and a lot of his critics) do understand and appreciate what he's done for finnish noise/underground scene, but as someone pointed out, nobody should be above critique. and me not liking him shouldn't take anything out of your enjoyment.

for me, the nazi/fascist themes are a turnoff as well. i'm an anti-fascist through and through and also belong in one of those minorities the contemporary nazis want to eradicate from their utopia. i understand the shock value of old in fascist themes, but with the rise of far-right sympathies and neo-fascism in recent years i think nazi imagery has as much "shock value" nowadays as a pool of vomit in front of a bar on saturday. same goes for sexist and homo- or transphobic themes as well. it's not very shocking anymore when it's something that's targeted towards you (or people close to you) everyday.

at the end of the day, i just gravitate towards stuff that doesn't have stuff that i dislike. i'm glad there's people and labels out there offering alternatives to the edgy nihilistic aesthetics. nothing inherently wrong with nihilism and edginess, i can be both on certain days (ffs my alias means corpse in finnish), it just gets boring pretty fast if that's all that a scene has to offer.

WORD!

And yeah, I don't see raising funds for a violent nazi as "just a provocation", for example.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

Honestly didn't know this thread was destined to go in this direction

I confess I rather did expect it, but yeah in my perfect world this would be a thread that would have me rolling every three posts. Ah well.

[adult human]

That being said, I also think it's unfair to lump these topics into "trite/crap/tropes". Look at what Himukalt is doing with the topic of sexual violence, look at what Interracial Sex is saying about racism. Those two projects have brought a totally new life and perspective on topics that have been getting beaten to death in noise for forty years.

...

I do agree, however, that most attempts at "transgressive" music are ham-fisted at best.

To be clear - I don't at all mean to lump all those topics in as trite or rubbish. I have no problem with people exploring whatever they want to in their work and would never say that art shouldn't be made about worrying topics because how am I to know that it will always end up redundant? I care enough about art for its own sake to say that profound and moving work can potentially be made about any topic regardless of whether I see it happening. No problem either with engaging with things that make me feel miserable and gross for similar reasons. What I am saying, though, is that you will and should be judged accurately for your efforts and when you live in the same world that bought you CON-DOM you've got some hard work to do. The projects you mention aren't especially to my taste but sure, I can identify that there are some noticeably different takes on those 'usual' (?) topics going on from those directions. But it's not always enough to point out the handful of things that aim for something higher while the lowballing norm continues to be just as celebrated.

The crying wolf routine gets old. Let's cancel that shit.

Frankly I think a lot of guys use right wing imagery because they want to have a noise project, don't have anything really provocative to say but want to get a rise out of people. I think that crowd does generally (but not always) lean right and racist but there's a spectrum of those beliefs and some of those people are far more redeemable than others. Zyklon SS is a good (or bad) example of this, I think. He just wants to piss people off, and he's succeeded. I'm inclined to believe him when he says it's a fuck you to the noise community as opposed to a political statement.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean by the crying wolf comment? Perhaps we're simply agreeing because I often lament how obvious it is that a lot of these themes exist way more due to a motivation to take part in noise/power electronics before any sort of impulse on behalf of the artist to comment on those topics specifically. It frustrates me that we're always supposed to believe in the presence of something we have to work for and CONFRONT in our ourselves to access with this music because the artist will not be serving it up to us on a plate and all of that...yet 9/10 times a little prodding around shows you that it's just not fucking there. There is no grand commentary or narrative in it whatsoever - just a load of stock gestures which at best seem to invite us to regard a topic that most us already to know be unpleasant and complex as unpleasant and complex. I don't believe that 99% of these guys give a shit about the content of their statements as much as they do making them through a flange pedal. Your example of ZSS is pertinent enough here though I feel like there is a bit more to it in the case of projects like that. Anyone can perform with the aim to annoy, offend and say 'fuck you' to as many things as you want, that's fine. And they can even do it out of worship to a very specific sound or approach in making noise/PE. But if in the process they become bedfellows with the kind of people who take things, shall we say, a bit more seriously and organised than a few naughty words and arm movements in private gigs then they're getting into something entirely different and deserve to be treated as such. You will see all kinds of actors in that little sphere cop to various political attitudes with regards to not being tongue tied, emotional lefties but when you get specific about it you tend to see a lot of this 'who me? oh well that's not quite what it looks like' bullshit come to the fore. To attempt to retreat into some apolitical aesthetic ambiguity or try to convince people in your artistic sleight of hand once you're rubbing those shoulders is simply piss weak and insincere.

I kind of disagree with you about the politeness, though I was having fun arguing on a message board again for the first time in a long ass time.

Just trying to toe the line.

[Residual / RT]

"harsh noise wall"
bandcamp / internet / meme noise (internet culture in general)
anime porn aesthetics
"is this noise?"

[Joie de la Blumpy]

(internet culture in general)

He says, po-faced.

[Residual / RT]

(internet culture in general)

He says, po-faced.

now now

but seriously i just don't get it. memes and memes and memes, there's so many layers of meaning and humour that you need to basically live online to understand that shit. then when it's superimposed on noise, i just don't get the references. facebook noise groups have a huge amount of noise like that, bandcamp only releases with meme / anime aesthetics that I don't understand at all. they seem to be mostly harsh noise wall, which in my experience is a style of noise i like the least.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

apolitical aesthetic ambiguity

artistic sleight of hand

Right, but I think we're still talking about...art?

Point being, the criticism, necessarily, needs to cut both ways. Is one sort of ambiguity to be elevated above another? I'm getting confused. (And that's a good thing!)

[chryptusrecords]

"Transgressive" is a term that gets thrown around often, mostly as a put down, but I think transgression is in the eye of the beholder. I also think inviting transgressions against your own morals in this context makes for a fascinating experience.

yeah see, you're whole perspective is just bourgeois fucking affectation, you wanna play around with swastikas and spooky weird shit, but you dont want anyone to ever challenge you on it. transgressing against your own morals is fucking weak, anybody could listen to a record they don't like, go transgress against the actual laws of real-world society and see how long you last. but you don't actually want do challenge or do anything hard, you just want a safe space to indulge in your collector hobby with zero pushback.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

transgressing against your own morals is fucking weak

Hmm. I'm going to have to come back to the above-quoted a few times, because I've definitely argued the opposite (against my dad!) over the years. Or maybe I'm reading wrong. My argument (with the aforesaid dad) runs something like: but, dad, I need these people to help me position where I like to imagine I'm coming from. "How do I really feel?" Well, let's challenge that and engage with a panoply of supposed other sides.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

(internet culture in general)

He says, po-faced.

now now

but seriously i just don't get it. memes and memes and memes, there's so many layers of meaning and humour that you need to basically live online to understand that shit.

My dude, I hate to break it to you, but in this moment, like, reading the stupid shit I'm typing here, I think we are (both) living online.

Let me just say: poetically, I'm totally with you. Life sucks. Then you meme.

[Residual / RT]

He says, po-faced.

now now

but seriously i just don't get it. memes and memes and memes, there's so many layers of meaning and humour that you need to basically live online to understand that shit.

My dude, I hate to break it to you, but in this moment, like, reading the stupid shit I'm typing here, I think we are (both) living online.

well, there's online and "online"... but yeah, different strokes for different folks. younger ppl are naturally more familiar with that shit and thus use it. first stages of grumpy old man syndrome.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

grumpy old man syndrome.

I resemble that comment!

[chryptusrecords]

Well, let's challenge that and engage with a panoply of supposed other sides.

this is different from glorifying fascism imo, any serious thinker would engage with opposing views, but it's not a serious response from these right-wing sympathizers when they say "oh so nobody should be allowed to do x?" as if there's some kind of noise council that makes things allowed or not. if people want to defend nazi shit, they should expect pushback. listening back to WCN podcast interview with Haare, Oskar asks if he got any pushback from the title "Destroy Fascism, Love Forever"! ridiculous. you can see even in this thread the defense of the bystanders is incomprehensible; transgression is important, but most people who do it are morons. this is not the sort of attitude that produces good art imo.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

if people want to defend nazi shit, they should expect pushback.

Absolutely.

transgression is important, but most people who do it are morons. this is not the sort of attitude that produces good art imo.

Agree with the first part (if you will trust the pronouncements of this moron). As for the second part, want to agree, but less sure.

[Residual / RT]

biggest problem with the argument for being transgressive for transgressive's sake regarding nazi or misogyny aesthetics is that it's so derivative of earlier works in the year 2022. there's nothing transgressive about it, really, as we've seen those themes getting culturally chewed up and tossed away in the past 20 years. they're just passé and boring, well most of them anyway. himukalt is awesome, sure but she's definitely not peddling misogyny despite her themes and aesthetics resembling older transgressive works. perfect example of taking a fresh viewpoint and turning tropes on their heads. another artist doing the same is puce mary. themes of control, abuse, sex and death but done in a refreshing way. here's hoping her new tapes are a bit harsher than her last LP.

not familiar with interracial sex so can't comment, but personally i haven't really seen racist or race related themes get the same treatment. it's just more of the same, which is anything but transgressive in the current political landscape.

[chryptusrecords]

transgression is important, but most people who do it are morons. this is not the sort of attitude that produces good art imo.

Agree with the first part (if you will trust the pronouncements of this moron). As for the second part, want to agree, but less sure.

ha fair enough! i do like death metal music so maybe you're right

[Residual / RT]

and i guess it's fine to use old tropes if you just want to make genre music. most music styles are like this, you use familiar images and themes to cater to a certain a certain reference group. it's a safer way to get your music heard since there's an audience who you can sell your music to, who gravitate towards a certain aesthetic. but maybe with noise you'd want to expect something more personal and imaginative? idk, maybe not. it's not like i'm innocent, my last tape uses some pretty cliche'd urban decay as the cover. like that's not been done to death, hah!

this is why i love people like worth or aprapat, they have such individualistic art and sounds.

[leuksi]

bandcamp / internet / meme noise (internet culture in general)

This is a huge turn off, yes. Most of this Reddit-noise is just lazy overall. I can't help but imagine the artist behind this kind of stuff being some edgy kid who saw Pagefires vids on HN and HNW and decided to do it exactly like in the vids. Slap on some shitty digital artwork that looks AI-generated and upload tens of albums of that shit online per week. Yay, I'm fucking pumped.

[heavyelectronix]

yeah see, you're whole perspective is just bourgeois fucking affectation, you wanna play around with swastikas and spooky weird shit, but you dont want anyone to ever challenge you on it.

I'm going to say this again: none of my projects are or have ever been remotely political. I personally do no make music like this, nor do I have any interest in doing so. But I think when someone does it's worth investigating as opposed to throwing around insults. You keep ignoring everything I'm saying so you can categorize me in neat little compartments of good guys and bad guys. Your mind reading abilities are not as astute as you think they are.

transgressing against your own morals is fucking weak, anybody could listen to a record they don't like, go transgress against the actual laws of real-world society and see how long you last. but you don't actually want do challenge or do anything hard, you just want a safe space to indulge in your collector hobby with zero pushback.

It's not about listening to a you "don't like", it's about a good album that creates an uncomfortable listening experience.

LMFAO. What the fuck are you even talking about? Please tell me you don't actually think you're actually out here changing the world fifty PE tapes at a time. Please, for the love of god, don't tell me you think you're on the evil fascist government's radar for posting infographics on your Instagram story. Maybe you did the black bloc thing and threw a few bricks through windows. WOWZERS, what a revolutionary, they're gonna throw you in gitmo.

You think you're challenging anyone? You think there's a bunch of skinheads cowering at the though of the next Controlled Opposition tape? You think you're actually changing anything or challenging the status quo?

You got a wicked case of the brain worms, junior. Anyway, there's clearly no point in arguing with you because you just want a straw man to unleash your revolutionary fury on, but if you want to continue exchanging personal insults feel free to hit these DMs.

[truetildeaf]

Evola ain’t never gonna text you back, bro.

[chryptusrecords]

I do political shit in reality where it matters. I'm glad you know about CO, I don't know who you are or what your projects are. I put my name on everything I do because I stand by in the face of whiners and people who think leftism is "lame" because of memes. Sorry for ignoring your obvious shitposting like "name a sexier anarchist than Yukio Mishima." i haven't said anything personal about you because i dont know who the fuck you are, i'm just responding to the contradictory nonsense you're posting here.

[W.K.]

Never mind my post!

[33033]

bandcamp / internet / meme noise (internet culture in general)
anime porn aesthetics

I absolutely agree on the anime porn aesthetics. Worst.

The bandcamp thing is another can of worms. I get why people would dislike projects that solely are based on bandcamp. However, I can't throw the baby out with the bathwater when there are a lot of folks whose material is great, but they're a bit freaked out/unsure of how to get out physical stuff. Maybe they're too nervous to send to labels, or don't want to sink their own money into it (if you like and love your art, you should sink your own cash into physicals!!). Or maybe they did send to a few labels and they passed (not everyone has to like your material because you did something). Then again there are projects that should stay on bandcamp because, yeah, it's best left in that realm...

[Scream & Writhe]

The bandcamp thing is another can of worms. I get why people would dislike projects that solely are based on bandcamp. However, I can't throw the baby out with the bathwater when there are a lot of folks whose material is great, but they're a bit freaked out/unsure of how to get out physical stuff. Maybe they're too nervous to send to labels, or don't want to sink their own money into it (if you like and love your art, you should sink your own cash into physicals!!). Or maybe they did send to a few labels and they passed (not everyone has to like your material because you did something). Then again there are projects that should stay on bandcamp because, yeah, it's best left in that realm...

I think this is worthy of a bit of discussion, too. Bandcamp now seems to be used like SoundCloud in some cases. To me SC was always where the mixes, samples, early versions, etc. were posted, and Bandcamp was the "official" release platform. The UI of SoundCloud can be incredibly confusing so I don't mind people dropping it, but porting unfinished/sample works over to BC doesn't line up correctly in my brain.

A bit hasty here as I'm at work and can't flesh these thoughts out entirely at present.

[33033]

I think this is worthy of a bit of discussion, too. Bandcamp now seems to be used like SoundCloud in some cases. To me SC was always where the mixes, samples, early versions, etc. were posted, and Bandcamp was the "official" release platform. The UI of SoundCloud can be incredibly confusing so I don't mind people dropping it, but porting unfinished/sample works over to BC doesn't line up correctly in my brain.

A bit hasty here as I'm at work and can't flesh these thoughts out entirely at present.

I avoided SoundCloud as I only ever saw it full of DJs and SoundCloud Rappers, so I never bothered really with it much. And yep the UI of it drew me away too. I think the fact that Bandcamp is just so easy to use, and the "name your price" option with no limit is great for those unfinished/sample works IMO.