Dislikes and turnoffs

[consumer]

Frankly I think a lot of guys use right wing imagery because they want to have a noise project, don't have anything really provocative to say but want to get a rise out of people. I think that crowd does generally (but not always) lean right and racist but there's a spectrum of those beliefs and some of those people are far more redeemable than others. Zyklon SS is a good (or bad) example of this, I think. He just wants to piss people off, and he's succeeded. I'm inclined to believe him when he says it's a fuck you to the noise community as opposed to a political statement.

What makes you think ZSS is "more redeemable"? He's performed at the Apocalyptic Rites festival (as has Pain Nail), which seems like the kind of audience that would agree with his content, not be pissed off by it.

[W.K.]

Wrong topic never mind

[Residual / RT]

With the huge amount of noise getting released, I personally just don't have enough time to listen to not-good-enough-for-tape quality noise. That's exactly why it's a turn off: I expect digital only noise to be of sub-par quality and thus not worth my time when I could be listening to stuff someone who's tastes I trust believes in enough to do a physical release.

[Touch Starved]

Some very interesting and true points being brought up in this topic. I’m glad I’m not the only one who cringes at the edgy and exploitative side of modern noise / pe. There are many amazing albums that have been made about these taboo topics but they were made over 20 years ago and these topics can’t even be considered taboo or offensive in the noise world anymore. I can’t honestly think of any project that has made those themes more interesting or captivating than what those albums in the past did. In my humble opinion there’s nothing special, taboo or offensive about white guys making the same cliché album about rape / serial killers / racism / sexism etc. over and over again.

[Touch Starved]

I will say this though, by no means am I implying that these projects don’t bring anything to the table, those who enjoy that edgy style will always want to hear more. Me, personally I’d much rather hear an album about these topics made by someone who is / was affected by sexism, racism, rape etc. and as someone said earlier; takes these themes and turns them on their heads, instead of a white man yelling about how powerful the hate feels.

[sunandsteel]

Mesmerizing that people say far right themes aren't transgressive and don't violate the mores of the dominant culture when the pushback seems to not only be the consensus here, but is completely in line with the media/institutional power. Can you honestly look at what gets pushed these days and say with a straight face we live under fascism? This isn't a left vs right thing, it's just objectively true and evident especially after 2016. You can even ask someone like Glenn Greenwald.

Anyways, don't want to have this devolve into a political thing. Transgression for transgression sake is passe and a cop out. It reeks to me of the self indulgence of the artist. Worst of all is when the project uses themes that then force a genuine apology, which I can remember a few cases of within the last handful of years. Not saying that the artist's views has to completely align with whatever subject they're exploring. In our current culture, what can you even call transgressive? Most of the bizarre psycho-sexual stuff is already on full display on Netflix and HBO shows.

I view the left/right divide as much about aesthetics than anything materially political. Explicitly left wing art comes across as too direct and just makes me think of a nagging school teacher. There was one project who in it's sole year of existence released a slew of tapes with themes such as condemnation of "gun culture" and the alt right. Talking to people about it, it came to be referred to as NPR Electronics.

[xIncorruptibleCorpse777x]

Okay, here's a real list:

- anime porn bullshit
- orgasm samples (cheap and stupid)
- sexual violence (being subjected to the two above are bad enough)

[Residual / RT]

Mesmerizing that people say far right themes aren't transgressive and don't violate the mores of the dominant culture when the pushback seems to not only be the consensus here, but is completely in line with the media/institutional power.

It's not transgressive simply because most countries in the western hemisphere have a far right political movement with a lot of supporters who push a far right agenda openly, and those supporters hold nothing back in social media. It's not taboo anymore, thus not transgressive. When I see a noise project with a far right theme, or any music in general, I assume they have an agenda. Nothing with those themes shocks me, or violate anything. It's just more of the same we see on social media every day. Honestly it just bores me. You say leftist music is often preachy, well to counter that far right music is dumb, one-dimensional and crude.

Basically, if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck etc.

[T.D.]

Mesmerizing that people say far right themes aren't transgressive and don't violate the mores of the dominant culture when the pushback seems to not only be the consensus here, but is completely in line with the media/institutional power. Can you honestly look at what gets pushed these days and say with a straight face we live under fascism? This isn't a left vs right thing, it's just objectively true and evident especially after 2016. You can even ask someone like Glenn Greenwald.

Anyways, don't want to have this devolve into a political thing. Transgression for transgression sake is passe and a cop out. It reeks to me of the self indulgence of the artist. Worst of all is when the project uses themes that then force a genuine apology, which I can remember a few cases of within the last handful of years. Not saying that the artist's views has to completely align with whatever subject they're exploring. In our current culture, what can you even call transgressive? Most of the bizarre psycho-sexual stuff is already on full display on Netflix and HBO shows.

I view the left/right divide as much about aesthetics than anything materially political. Explicitly left wing art comes across as too direct and just makes me think of a nagging school teacher. There was one project who in it's sole year of existence released a slew of tapes with themes such as condemnation of "gun culture" and the alt right. Talking to people about it, it came to be referred to as NPR Electronics.

Glenn Greenwald is a multi-millionaire who has direct access to the most influential corporate media program in the country and has rotted his brain from elite culture war squabbles your average person could not possibly care less about. I don't think America is currently fascist either (at least by a historically consistent definition) but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility if basic material conditions don't improve, and you can go plenty of places where white supremascist, misogynist, transphobic etc. rhetoric is celebrated quite openly, so the fact it's not happening here (a good thing!) is irrelevant.

I too don't wanna derail this thread with politics but the only actual "transgressive" thing in regards to challenging ruling class power is working class unity, which in a country with the socioeconomic makeup of the U.S. is necessarily multi-racial (though certainly not "anti-white"). And to the degree these words retain any meaning it is very much a left (egalitarian) vs. right (hierarchical) thing, regardless how "cringe" you find ANTIFA or whatever.

Anyway, I do agree with you that transgression for transgressions sake is baby brain shit and an aesthetic dead end. Art is typically a poor vehicle for politics (regardless of ideological bent) but there are exceptions. One thing I rarely see brought up in regard to this topic is form. It goes without saying that any quality judgement is subjective, but most of the music/art I personally value that deals with "transgressive" themes/content (from Come-era Whitehouse to Actionism to Futurism) was also innovative or exploratory in its overall structure in a way that I find the more superficial or content-focused PE etc. is not (to the extent I pay any attention to any of it, which is admittedly not much). Speaking very generally, these artists' intentions often seemed more holistic in terms of what they were challenging, which was as much (more?) the previously established conventions of their given medium than broader, ill-defined social mores.

To put it another way, I would have a tough time listening to a band who had what I considered to be great lyrics set to substandard or generic music. It's not a perfect comparison because I do think noise/PE functions a bit differently, and it's not that I think content or "message" are unimportant, but I generally find the means of delivery, with its capacity towards abstraction as mentioned earlier, much more engaging, because that is something unique to art. One could write an essay if they had a clear cut message to communicate, but it doesn't work the other way around.

Of course no artist is obligated to explain their work, and no topic should be off limits, but one can't then complain about the inevitable backlash, as hyperbolic or censorious as it may be, when using "controversial" subject matter in an ambiguous way. To my knowledge some of the artists being mentioned accept this reality so credit for that at least, even if their work doesn't appeal to me. As for anyone whose cute 'lil Herrenvolk fetish spills over to the real world, fuck them, they are the enemy, and if you think this is some kind of preachy woke position I just feel sorry for you.

[shrouded.in.antiquity]

By far my biggest dislike when it comes to noise/pe/etc is when you buy a tape for a release you are really stoked about and you finally get it in the mail and throw it in the player and press play and lo and behold the dub is too quiet. I've bought tapes before where I had to turn the volume on my player all the way up and the audio was still extremely buried. If you aren't going to dub your material at a decent volume then don't bother releasing it on cassette.

[Residual / RT]

By far my biggest dislike when it comes to noise/pe/etc is when you buy a tape for a release you are really stoked about and you finally get it in the mail and throw it in the player and press play and lo and behold the dub is too quiet. I've bought tapes before where I had to turn the volume on my player all the way up and the audio was still extremely buried. If you aren't going to dub your material at a decent volume then don't bother releasing it on cassette.

I think pro-tapes have this fault very often. The professional companies doing tape duplication just simply cannot grasp why anyone would want to dub a tape so hot that it end up sounding different than the master. For example I know that WCN and Satatuhatta dub their tapes themselves and sufficiently hot.

I personally think anyone who wants to make a noise tape should get a tape deck with stereo inputs at home and at least dub a master copy themselves, if only to hear how dubbing a tape hot changes the sound of the tape. sure it's not going to be the same when someone else does it, but at least you can hear that there is a difference and usually for the better.

[Remi]

I love the "Add foe" function.

[sunandsteel]

Mesmerizing that people say far right themes aren't transgressive and don't violate the mores of the dominant culture when the pushback seems to not only be the consensus here, but is completely in line with the media/institutional power. Can you honestly look at what gets pushed these days and say with a straight face we live under fascism? This isn't a left vs right thing, it's just objectively true and evident especially after 2016. You can even ask someone like Glenn Greenwald.

Anyways, don't want to have this devolve into a political thing. Transgression for transgression sake is passe and a cop out. It reeks to me of the self indulgence of the artist. Worst of all is when the project uses themes that then force a genuine apology, which I can remember a few cases of within the last handful of years. Not saying that the artist's views has to completely align with whatever subject they're exploring. In our current culture, what can you even call transgressive? Most of the bizarre psycho-sexual stuff is already on full display on Netflix and HBO shows.

I view the left/right divide as much about aesthetics than anything materially political. Explicitly left wing art comes across as too direct and just makes me think of a nagging school teacher. There was one project who in it's sole year of existence released a slew of tapes with themes such as condemnation of "gun culture" and the alt right. Talking to people about it, it came to be referred to as NPR Electronics.

Glenn Greenwald is a multi-millionaire who has direct access to the most influential corporate media program in the country and has rotted his brain from elite culture war squabbles your average person could not possibly care less about. I don't think America is currently fascist either (at least by a historically consistent definition) but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility if basic material conditions don't improve, and you can go plenty of places where white supremascist, misogynist, transphobic etc. rhetoric is celebrated quite openly, so the fact it's not happening here (a good thing!) is irrelevant.

I too don't wanna derail this thread with politics but the only actual "transgressive" thing in regards to challenging ruling class power is working class unity, which in a country with the socioeconomic makeup of the U.S. is necessarily multi-racial (though certainly not "anti-white"). And to the degree these words retain any meaning it is very much a left (egalitarian) vs. right (hierarchical) thing, regardless how "cringe" you find ANTIFA or whatever.

Anyway, I do agree with you that transgression for transgressions sake is baby brain shit and an aesthetic dead end. Art is typically a poor vehicle for politics (regardless of ideological bent) but there are exceptions. One thing I rarely see brought up in regard to this topic is form. It goes without saying that any quality judgement is subjective, but most of the music/art I personally value that deals with "transgressive" themes/content (from Come-era Whitehouse to Actionism to Futurism) was also innovative or exploratory in its overall structure in a way that I find the more superficial or content-focused PE etc. is not (to the extent I pay any attention to any of it, which is admittedly not much). Speaking very generally, these artists' intentions often seemed more holistic in terms of what they were challenging, which was as much (more?) the previously established conventions of their given medium than broader, ill-defined social mores.

Glenn Greenwald was just an attempt to think of someone who's reference wouldn't be too online. You can swap that out for the "anti woke" left that has emerged the past couple years and the point still stands.

Again, I don't want to get too into politics. On the point of transgression, something you alluded to, is it even possible in a microscene such as PE or any sort of subculture? I think there is a misunderstanding of the concepts of transgression/taboo. Something that sweeps wider society and suspends it's norms is taboo, think of the bacchanal of ancient times. Subculture ceased to have that effect long ago if it ever really did have it. This stuff exists in such a bubble that I doubt it can really take up the true meaning of the aforementioned terms. This isn't to say that someone shouldn't do "taboo" themes and perhaps labeling the intent as transgressive is a misunderstanding on the part of the listener. Perhaps the artist's motivations are simple and they're just projecting their own interests. I'm not referring to solely political themes either.

[New Forces]

People's tolerance for awful and/or quiet dubs never ceases to amaze me. Big labels, hype labels, labels that just started... it must not bother people or they have no idea that it's not supposed to be better. Had a big laugh at "NPR Electronics."

One big one for me is watching a PE act scream menacingly into a microphone during a live set while the vocals are completely inaudible over the PA. Incredible how often this happens.

[33033]

By far my biggest dislike when it comes to noise/pe/etc is when you buy a tape for a release you are really stoked about and you finally get it in the mail and throw it in the player and press play and lo and behold the dub is too quiet. I've bought tapes before where I had to turn the volume on my player all the way up and the audio was still extremely buried. If you aren't going to dub your material at a decent volume then don't bother releasing it on cassette.

This happened to me with the En Nihil - The Crown Becomes The Noose cassette, then I realized Noxious Upsurge put it out and i was like right...that...

Another instant dislike is when someone dubs from their computer (sure that's fine) but doesn't realize there's Windows alert sounds being recorded in the dub...

[Residual / RT]

Another instant dislike is when someone dubs from their computer (sure that's fine) but doesn't realize there's Windows alert sounds being recorded in the dub...

hah, which tape has this

[Touch Starved]

Another instant dislike is when someone dubs from their computer (sure that's fine) but doesn't realize there's Windows alert sounds being recorded in the dub...

hah, which tape has this

Not a tape but Prurient’s ’Mater Dolorosa’ has this exact problem hahahah

[xIncorruptibleCorpse777x]

One big one for me is watching a PE act scream menacingly into a microphone during a live set while the vocals are completely inaudible over the PA. Incredible how often this happens.

That is possibly the most amusing thing I've ever seen at noise/pe/etc shows. It happens so often, too.

Btw that Windows alert thing has me ROLLING!!!

[Chris]

Prioritizing gear over sound/vision drives me nuts. I recently saw a gig photo that looked like the contents of a Guitar Center exploded onto a table. Do you really need to lug that much stuff for a 10 minute set?

[Ineffable Slime]

yea I totally agree about the buried PE vocals thing. PE to me, is about replicating the experience of having someone getting in your face and just losing their shit, burying the vocals is such a weak move. I'd rather have quiet background and vocals just exploding vs the alternate.

Also the obvious - dubbing 15 minute of material to 1 side of a C60 or something like that. I have a few tapes I've listened to once and just like, can't find the audio again.

Also when someone does something to a tape that they think is cool but actually renders it unplayable. See - spraypainting cassettes unless you take the time to disassemble it.

[33033]

Another instant dislike is when someone dubs from their computer (sure that's fine) but doesn't realize there's Windows alert sounds being recorded in the dub...

hah, which tape has this

Not going to name anyone! haha. It was a tiny run of someones material I picked up, and I hope he noticed in future versions...

[Noisomatic]

Nothing.

I rather focus on the things I enjoy.

I feel you, same over here.

[thevomitarsonist]

NPR Electronics.

ok, this is really funny

[W.K.]

On topic of Mikko and Grunt, pretty sure he does it to piss people of but also how many albums can you make using Nazi imagery? I don't know if the guy is a real Nazi but he made some pretty racy comments in the past...Aso he has done more for noise than most of us. Difficult isn't it? Especially when he doesn't give any conclusive answers himself.

Other artists...Vomir can fuck off to the deep end, seeing Philip Best aka Consumer Electronics live was a letdown to say the least and Con-Dom had one hell of a intense live performance but I can't get over how small and fragile the guy looks in real life, can't take any of his works serious anymore.

Guys wearing balaclava live but don't deliver in sound and performance. Dress up all you want but if you look like you are bringing something on the table, you better do it and not fail else it looks really stupid. I prefer someone having regular clothes so I also don't expect anything on forehand.

John Duncan can suck a hard cock.

Hardcore vocals in my PE or noise. I like shouting but please keep those HC vocals in our HC band.

Synthesized or flanger-like vocals like Genocide Organ uses.

Tiny sound, 'crackle studies' and all that bullshit.

I'm all for difficult themes and explorations but most artist aren't intelligent enough to really pull of certain topics. Ambivalence is A-ok but don't be that 30-year old guy that acts like an edgy 14-year old teenager. This isn't really limited to noise, and has to do more with (extreme) music in general. Most artists are just not really that deep nor intelligent.

Sorry for the downer note, guess once one starts writing it's better to let it all out!

[W.K.]

VOD doing re-releases of obscure and hard to get material only. Surely VOD should do what they want to do but I'm just jealous because I never have money for it and I rather see more affordable CD-re-releases.