Generational differences in the noise community

[haldorsen]

Howdy friends.

This topic has been on my mind for a while and seemingly on the minds of others given that it's been a talking point on multiple episodes of the WCN podcast, but I thought it was time to have a larger discussion on the differences and disconnections between generations in the noise scene. It's quite apparent that there are significant differences in how people interact with others in the scene and with the music itself depending on their age and relative experience/time spent in the scene.

It would appear to me as though a majority of the people active in the broader scene globally are in the late 20s to 40s range, and largely are familiar with the standards of how things work. Maybe that is the case, or maybe that's simply the demographic that is represented the most vocally. I don't really know, is this actually the case? Do you feel like your perspective in the noise scene is represented?

I, for reference, am 24 and have been into noise for almost 4 years at this point, but I mostly lived in an area where there was no scene, and it has taken me a long fucking time to figure out what's going on, and I'm still not there. Lately I've been trying harder to participate more, partially thanks to moving to a city that actually has a noise scene, and I've also been binging all of the WCN episodes to try and learn as much as I can. But still I get this feeling of being disconnected. Experience level plays a part for sure, but I suspect more and more that it's kind of an age thing. Broadly speaking, it seems to me like a 30 year old and a 40 year old would have more in common than a 20 year old and a 30 year old nowadays, which I believe is a symptom of the increasing technological advancements and the role it plays in our lives.

The way I grew up and the relationship I have with technology is so much different then someone 5 years older than me, yet also very different than someone 5 years younger, and I think that kind of thing significantly impacts how we approach communication, both online and irl. Like I don't think forums are really much of younger person thing because it feels sort of antiquated compared to more streamlined platforms like social media. Obviously social media has a lot of very negative effects on people and whatever, but for the younger generation, it's something we grew up with and has pretty much been established as an integral part of existing online for us. It's kind of hard to escape the idea that if it doesn't exist on social media than it doesn't exist when that sort of thinking has been engrained in us from a young age. Sure, not all younger people think that way, and many interact in other parts of the internet and whatnot, but it seems like the disconnect between that line of thinking and the more generally millennial noise scene has had severe repercussions on younger blood accessing the scene.

As with anything, there's a learning curve, and for noise, it seems like the curve gets steeper the younger you are, and it's got me wondering what we can do to help with that. I think Oskar has done an especially outstanding job in disseminating noise knowledge to a broader audience, a younger audience even. For a younger person like myself, the WCN podcast has helped tremendously in my understanding of conventions and history, and even has touched on this subject we're talking about. But it seems like the conversation about the future of noise is always from an older, granted more experienced perspective, making the dialogue a bit one sided. Like is the future of noise in the hands of the older folks or the younger ones? There's obviously no future if there's no new young people to carry it forward, and I'm trying to do my part in learning and participating, but all of this has also shown me that the established noise conventions are heavily rooted in old technology, which from my perspective can be a bit alienating. I'd like to avoid getting into the topic of gatekeeping, but there is inevitably that aspect of what I'm talking about: barrier to entry. If technology keeps advancing, and noise doesn't change, the barrier to entry gets higher and higher, especially for younger folks. Is this good? Is it bad?

I assume a lot of you 30's and older grew up with an understanding of tapes and were exposed to a lot of diy culture, but when I grew up I didn't even know how to burn a CD, and I still don't. Alas, I learned how to use tape recorders and shit like that, but a teenager nowadays probably knows even less, and with the rising prices of tapes and equipment they're probably less likely than ever to go out of their way to learn about that stuff. So is that teenager just not going to get to be a part of the noise scene? It's not exactly their fault that they are coming out of the gate so poorly equipped to enter a scene such as this, and I think that's a huge consideration that gets overlooked by the older noise folk.

I bring all of this up not to shit on anyone, but so we can talk about these differences that maybe you didn't think about. So what are some things in the noise scene that you think could be changed to be more accommodating to a wider variety of ages, especially the younger generation? Does the noise scene even need to be more accommodating?

As controversial as social media and bandcamp are, I personally think it's pretty much the only way that younger people can even discover noise, especially because even just the way that younger people have learned to interact with the internet is very different than the way you older heads probably learned interact with the internet. Like when I was getting into noise, I thought that the way you had to do it was post a bunch of shit on bandcamp and heavily advertise it, because that was the model set before me by many others that I saw online. So why is the way I was exposed to worse than the way you were exposed to back in the day before the reign of bandcamp and instagram? Like it or not, it's just different times, so how can we better work to bridge the gap? Like I get wanting to make new people bend to the old ways, but at what point do the old ways have to bend to the new people? It's gotta be a give and take, you know? What do you think?

Sorry this is a long one, but I just love noise and I'm the most stoked I've ever been about it, and this stuff has been weighing on my mind heavily over the past couple of weeks. I'd encourage any other younger people to chime in with their experiences, because I surely can't be the only one who has noticed and thought about this phenomenon. And for older folks, what do you think? Do you feel disconnected from those younger than you in the scene? I know I already feel disconnected from those younger than me and I'm only 24. Overall I just want people to be more conscientious of where others are coming from when participating in the scene that way we can improve it for everyone, regardless of age.

Anyways thanks for coming to my ted talk.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

I am 28 years old, I enjoy a quiet life and hate noise of all kind.

-- Bill Exley/The Nihilist Spasm Band, 1967

[housepig]

I want to touch on a couple of things in response -

- the future of noise will be shaped by those who are doing it; like any scene, the older you get, the more likely you are to drop out of it; priorities change, life intrudes, the balance of how much energy you have or want to expend on it can diminish, so a lot of folks will drop out. I'm stoked about how much Oskar is doing with WCN, the interviews, and rightfully turning into a scene historian and noise elder (for lack of a better term) but I can also remember meeting him when he was relatively new to the scene, and trying to get to know folks and figure stuff out. If you stick around, maybe you will too.

- as for technology, I take a reverse stance - there is no "right" way to make noise, if it sounds good to you and expresses what you want, it's good, whether you make it on junk metal, an iPad, a laptop, a ridiculously expensive wall of modular gear, whatever. If purists and gatekeepers tell you "you can't make noise with [whatever is on your table that you're stoked about using]", fucking laugh in their face. They don't make the rules, and if you're enjoying it, that's what matters. Now whether anybody wants to release it, buy it, trade for it or download it, that's another story. But compared to when I started making noise (early 90's for my first experiments), the barriers to entry are so low as to be nonexistent for most anybody who has the technology to read this post. free DAW and tape recorder software, free sampling and sound mangling software, free synths, on every platform imaginable, are there for the price of data. you don't have to put something on tape, or cd, or vinyl; you can release digitally, put it up for download on pay or free sites to disseminate it.

- similarly, there is so much access to things that I could only read about in zine reviews or label catalogs, and wonder what it sounded like; now you can give yourself a master class in the history of noise and find virtually anything spanning all eras. there are endless blogs devoted to curating and guiding you through the crucial listening of the past.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

One thing that resonates for me here is the shifting nature of the playback format (which is probably the least interesting part of this topic, inextricably linked or no, apologies in advance). I recall a time when I would buy cds but did not- yet- have a cd player. Only turntables and tapedecks. But I continued to purchase cds that I could no more than look at cause I knew I would eventually have the means to cop a player. Much later a few Japanese folk sent me things on minidisc, so I needed to get something that would play that, too. A couple DAT items were distro'd, needed something for that. And meanwhile I also scored a reel to reel or two cause it seemed like a fun thing to futz around with. (As for that 8-track, sorry mate!)

So to say, I haven't a clue, and wouldn't know where to get one, but that at least for me the format is part of the charm and, say it, the humor. The humanity of it. The more obscure unplayable inaccessible the better, on some level, in part because we all know everything can always be committed to a more viable medium, if the purveyor(s) were so inclined. At which point this part of the discussion may shift to the topic of packaging.

I notice one fairly new label, major player on the scene at this point, has more recently stopped popping download codes in with the tape. That's a bit of a statement there- especially given that the sound work is (also) available on digital format if preferred- and one (a statement) I righteously smile at, no less conscious of how my ready access to all the necessary playback devices necessarily distorts perception of that smile.

These can read as barriers, because let's not quibble they are, but they could read as invitations to join the fun, for a given value of fun, with the next wonderful layer of absurdity or contradiction but a click away...

[haldorsen]

- as for technology, I take a reverse stance - there is no "right" way to make noise, if it sounds good to you and expresses what you want, it's good, whether you make it on junk metal, an iPad, a laptop, a ridiculously expensive wall of modular gear, whatever. If purists and gatekeepers tell you "you can't make noise with [whatever is on your table that you're stoked about using]", fucking laugh in their face. They don't make the rules, and if you're enjoying it, that's what matters. Now whether anybody wants to release it, buy it, trade for it or download it, that's another story. But compared to when I started making noise (early 90's for my first experiments), the barriers to entry are so low as to be nonexistent for most anybody who has the technology to read this post. free DAW and tape recorder software, free sampling and sound mangling software, free synths, on every platform imaginable, are there for the price of data. you don't have to put something on tape, or cd, or vinyl; you can release digitally, put it up for download on pay or free sites to disseminate it.

- similarly, there is so much access to things that I could only read about in zine reviews or label catalogs, and wonder what it sounded like; now you can give yourself a master class in the history of noise and find virtually anything spanning all eras. there are endless blogs devoted to curating and guiding you through the crucial listening of the past.

Completely agree with the sentiment about it being easier than ever to make noise, but that doesn't exactly translate to acceptance from the noise scene, which is what I'm trying to get at. Like should easily made digital noise that gets uploaded to bandcamp and spammed on instagram become the norm? I don't really think so, but how will that play out in the future?

And regarding access to information, again yes, there's easier access than ever, but a lot of the information is stored in places like this forum or SI, which aren't exactly becoming more popular, especially with younger people. I got into this stuff pretty much exclusively online because I had no local scene or anyone to show me cool shit, so it was a long slow process for me to get here. I didn't find out about SI until 2 years ago, and I didn't find this forum until about 6 months ago, and I was NOT looking for a noise forum because forums (and blogs for that matter) are a weird and dated thing for younger people. I am super glad I found these forums, but the point is that as time goes on I think fewer and fewer people are going to find sources of information like this, not because they're not trying to, but because they won't even know what a forum is.

[Residual / RT]

We're kind of past the time when underground culture was a young persons game and constantly evolving into something new. The last underground movement that was truly modernist was post-punk, after that it's all been kind of regressive and derivative, even if electronic music has had some flashes of futuristic and modernist movement, but it's always quickly been copied and genrefied and monetized so fast that no true innovation is possible anymore (see: dubstep). So I would say the future of noise isn't dependent on young people, or old people. As it is now, people of all ages are trickling in and learning the ropes, then either move along or stay. I've seen people start making noise and have their first, pretty good tape released 6 months later by an established noise label. I've seen people self release multiple tapes in small pressings before getting released by an established label. And I've seen people churn out their noise jams on bandcamp, then blame "gatekeepers" or whatever because their stuff isn't interesting.

And this brings me to something I've seen a lot of people complain about (including OP, though I'm not sure if they're complaining or just musing): gatekeeping and barrier of entry. True, there is a barrier of entry to the world of noise. And I mean the established, physical release centric noise scene. You need to have some understanding of the aesthetics, history and styles of noise music to get in, and that means you have to listen to noise as well as maybe try to get your hand on some information regarding noise. And like OP said, it's never been easier than now with all the podcasts. Before you had to read forums, and before that buy zines to get that information.

But, as much as young people seem to think this barrier, this requirement of knowledge is a bad thing, it's really not! It's one of the best things about noise, really. It's based on the true DIY ethics of noise that are at the core of the whole scene. YOU need to be interested and involved, this isn't a popularity contest much like most music scenes are. Everyone who wants in needs to go thru a bit of effort, but if they do they're more than welcome and there's no gatekeeping. It's very equal opportunity, if you "get it" and produce some good noise, you will get published, no matter what your backround, themes or personal qualities are. And that's the beauty of it. Noise still is what punk was a lifetime ago. And if you compare the barrier of entry now to what it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago...yeah, it's basically non-existent.

And regarding technology, it's also never been easier to start making any kind of music, including noise. You don't need tapes or vintage equipment. You don't even need to do tape releases if you don't want to or know how, even if it's one of the cheapest and easiest way to make a physical release. People are quite happy with CD-R's or even digital only if you're just starting out. There's a plethora of information available for cheap, great gear that's good for making noise. With a 20€ Behringer mixer and a few Behringer pedals and an entry level digital recorder you can make a solid noise release. So yeah, I don't buy the claim that young people are at a disadvantage because they don't know how to burn CD's or have ever seen a tape deck in real life.

[housepig]

Completely agree with the sentiment about it being easier than ever to make noise, but that doesn't exactly translate to acceptance from the noise scene, which is what I'm trying to get at. Like should easily made digital noise that gets uploaded to bandcamp and spammed on instagram become the norm? I don't really think so, but how will that play out in the future?

What do you consider the scene? It's not a monoblock - it's got incredibly fuzzy boundaries, with varying levels of acceptance from instance to instance.

Conflating "easily made" plus "digital" as "low quality" is another stumbling block; I've heard tons of noise that is released on tape, all analog sources, that were recorded as a one-take jam with no forethought, that sound like shit. Are they better because of the format or the gear? No. Quality is not limited or defined by the input, but by the result. But if YOU don't think that fits YOUR aesthetic, then go for something different and put it out there - then YOU are contributing to the future of noise in a way that YOU feel is valid.

And regarding access to information, again yes, there's easier access than ever, but a lot of the information is stored in places like this forum or SI, which aren't exactly becoming more popular, especially with younger people. I got into this stuff pretty much exclusively online because I had no local scene or anyone to show me cool shit, so it was a long slow process for me to get here. I didn't find out about SI until 2 years ago, and I didn't find this forum until about 6 months ago, and I was NOT looking for a noise forum because forums (and blogs for that matter) are a weird and dated thing for younger people. I am super glad I found these forums, but the point is that as time goes on I think fewer and fewer people are going to find sources of information like this, not because they're not trying to, but because they won't even know what a forum is.

The means of communication are always changing - forums come and go, websites come and go, labels come and go. All of these are based on people's attention, as I said before, and it's going to evolve over time. Maybe we'll all go back to printing zines and writing letters - pure analog.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

Another way to approach this, and which might be a bit more controversial (but I doubt it), is if the feeling wrt to [fill in blank... but for the sake of argument, let's call it IT] is that of outside then why try to be a part. Why not, as someone once said, celebrate the possibility OF being NO PART. Things can be made in opposition and sometimes more so. That'd be pretty cool, too, no? Or, as a great person once said,

"Fuck! John Zone! <sic> DEATH!! All Avantgarde <sic> artists! I am Hijokaidan! I am King Of Noise!!*"

But see, who decided that? (By "that" I mean the regal connotations.) Hint: will go out on a limb and say it was not the persons whom Mr King Of Noise had placed himself in opposition to.

The thing is, there is no thing. The starting point is, or could or possibly should be something to the effect of, er, lesse, sorry, dropped my notes, fucking glasses... uh... hold on folks it's coming. Ah yes, here we are: KILL EVERYTHING. NOW.


* mighta missed an exclamation mark or two, but you get the idear

[shrouded.in.antiquity]

The future of noise rests in the hands of whoever is creating it and whoever is listening to it. I've often thought about the different ways people communicate about noise. I always thought it was a great tragedy to watch some older heads take their leave of some of the groups on facebook, which when I was starting out was the only place I knew of to talk about noise with other people in the absence of a wider local scene. Although, to be fair I've met and talked with a lot of folks who aren't tapped into the same "scene" or artists that I'm interested in following who are still making and listening to noise.

I think a lot of the information about the history and the current scene is out there to be found, but you'll never find it if you don't look. This is not even particularly unique to noise, it could potentially be applied to any genre or art movement that isn't particularly mainstream. Noise especially has such a large and diverse ecosystem of artists and listeners all of whom have different opinions about what noise is, let alone what it should become. With this diversity of opinions and approaches comes a variety methods of releasing and sharing the material. Certainly uploading to bandcamp and sharing to every single facebook group that exists is one method of distribution, but there will always be folks who are interested in other methods. That might take the form of trading tapes or CDs, or maybe something else but these various methods are always going to co-exist in whatever forms they take. In the same way, forums will probably always exist as long as there are people interested in using them for discussion. Social media is only one method of communication, just because it's so wide spread and generally popular doesn't mean it's the end-all be-all. It's not like there's a paywall to viewing any of the conversations on a forum like this one, nor do you need an account to read anything. It should be said that forums aren't necessarily better or worse, they're just different and in my opinion having many outlets for communication is ultimately a good thing.

This being said, I very strongly disagree that bandcamp and social media are the only ways younger people can discover noise. This notion that everything should be easily curated and accessible via social media is already extremely pervasive, but that doesn't mean it is or should be an imperative. Like I said before one of the draws to this wide world of noise and experimental sound is the fact that you actually have to hunt for a lot of this stuff. Even if you're hunting around online, you have to actually go and look for artists, releases, contact information, etc. I think participation in any scene requires some amount of research on behalf of the burgeoning participant.

I'm only 2 years older than you, I discovered most of my own listening tastes via videos on youtube, as well as bandcamp, social media, all of that. I don't think it particularly matters how you discover the things you like as long as you're sincere about enjoying them. If anybody takes issue with how you want to listen to music or noise, that's on them. If you wanted to work with someone who turns their nose up at how you want to operate in this scene, then you should reconsider wanting to work with them at all. It should also be said, no label is a public service. Almost everybody running a noise label does it in their free time and therefore they release things they are interested in. Nobody is obligated to work with an artist just because they're new the same way no new artist is obligated to present their work in any specific way. Regardless of what anybody says or what opinions they hold there is NO right or wrong way to do any of this and you should participate in whatever ways you're most comfortable with.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

you'll never find it if you don't look

That may be true, and it may be that I want it to be (thus shall we say uh very possibly not), but I'd say a good share of this whole topic starts from the possibility that things. Can be found.

edit
Except that one thing, which was not like the other*

* you know the one

edit edit
Okay, maybe you didn't know. Did I mention I didn't want to know? I don't want to know**

** or do I?

[holy ghost]

I think we're seeing noise at it's most popular at the present time. Was it the pandemic keeping everyone at home for three years? You either bought an acoustic guitar or a Death Metal pedal along with your sourdough starter..... or is it an over-saturation of repetitive rock and pop genres that's causing people to seek out new and weird sounds? Perhaps it was burnout from hardcore punk and metal? For me (a 43 year old man) I feel like I have trouble keeping up as new people become enthusiastic about noise and there are just so many releases and so many projects and so many ways of accessing information and so much "discourse" happening all at once - and that isn't a bad thing! It's a very good thing but I may miss your project because I have too many damn albums I haven't given attention too and I have other musical interests as well and not only is there a larger interest in noise but also in vinyl and physical media.

IMO the DIY scene is for young people, not boring guys like me who would much rather skip the noise show and watch The Last of Us with my wife and go to bed at a reasonable hour. Same with hardcore, with death metal, grindcore, whatever UG scene we're talking about. I can't keep up with all these things any more, but that's okay - I'm still interested in them, but I'm much more selective. I probably won't find newer projects as meaningful and have that same connection but that also means I'll probably buy the newest Merzbow reissue on Urashima over a new project I may or may not play again.

[shrouded.in.antiquity]

you'll never find it if you don't look

That may be true, and it may be that I want it to be (thus shall we say uh very possibly not), but I'd say a good share of this whole topic starts from the possibility that things. Can be found.

edit
Except that one thing, which was not like the other*


* you know the one

Not a dig at what you said but a thought occurred to me. It's really amusing how people are always simultaneously lamenting how "everything is online now" while at the same time lamenting that so many things are still not online and not "discoverable." I think a great wealth of information is still discoverable online and deserves to be sought out. There are a myriad of collectors who digitize releases from their collections and put them online either via youtube, soulseek, blogs, etc. A quick google search will yield you interviews with most of the greats and there are still blogs, podcasts, review sites that have a fair amount of information. But again, you have to look. If you can't find something you're looking for then ask around. I don't think anybody needs to reinvent the wheel here.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

I don't think anybody needs to reinvent the wheel here.

I'd agree, but I wouldn't want to stop anyone from trying. Big fan of triangular wheels in these parts.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

If you can't find something you're looking for then ask around.

Well I'd say that's what the OP was doing, perhaps in a roundabout way. Asking around. Certainly one means at finding shit. Asking. However that is to be defined. In the meantime you'll get the gold, the silver and the dumbass (aka all the crap I've dropped into this topic; you're very welcome!). I approve of the asking around. The next step is the more aggressive form of asking around. With pseudo manifestos and declarations of regality. Mileage will vary.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

Not a dig at what you said but a thought occurred to me. It's really amusing how people are always simultaneously lamenting how "everything is online now"

Yeah, apologies, looks like by the fourth or fifth edit iteration I managed to edit out the line the reader was intended to read between, ha. Suffice it to say, everything online has its dark side now don't it.

[haldorsen]

And this brings me to something I've seen a lot of people complain about (including OP, though I'm not sure if they're complaining or just musing): gatekeeping and barrier of entry. True, there is a barrier of entry to the world of noise. And I mean the established, physical release centric noise scene. You need to have some understanding of the aesthetics, history and styles of noise music to get in, and that means you have to listen to noise as well as maybe try to get your hand on some information regarding noise. And like OP said, it's never been easier than now with all the podcasts. Before you had to read forums, and before that buy zines to get that information.

But, as much as young people seem to think this barrier, this requirement of knowledge is a bad thing, it's really not! It's one of the best things about noise, really. It's based on the true DIY ethics of noise that are at the core of the whole scene. YOU need to be interested and involved, this isn't a popularity contest much like most music scenes are. Everyone who wants in needs to go thru a bit of effort, but if they do they're more than welcome and there's no gatekeeping. It's very equal opportunity, if you "get it" and produce some good noise, you will get published, no matter what your backround, themes or personal qualities are. And that's the beauty of it. Noise still is what punk was a lifetime ago. And if you compare the barrier of entry now to what it was 20, 30 or 40 years ago...yeah, it's basically non-existent.

And regarding technology, it's also never been easier to start making any kind of music, including noise. You don't need tapes or vintage equipment. You don't even need to do tape releases if you don't want to or know how, even if it's one of the cheapest and easiest way to make a physical release. People are quite happy with CD-R's or even digital only if you're just starting out. There's a plethora of information available for cheap, great gear that's good for making noise. With a 20€ Behringer mixer and a few Behringer pedals and an entry level digital recorder you can make a solid noise release. So yeah, I don't buy the claim that young people are at a disadvantage because they don't know how to burn CD's or have ever seen a tape deck in real life.

Just musing really. I don't disagree about the requirement of knowledge being important, it's absolutely part of what makes it rewarding. I'm just bummed that I don't see more people my age or younger being active in circles like these, you know? I wouldn't have spent half of my saturday trying to create the four page essay above if I didn't care about this stuff, and I'm just trying to reason out and feel around why we don't see as much young activity compared to millennial and middle age groups. I'm sure there's kids out there doing noise shit, but I'm just relaying my experiences and thoughts as someone who's spent the better part of four years learning to navigate the online scene.

What do you consider the scene? It's not a monoblock - it's got incredibly fuzzy boundaries, with varying levels of acceptance from instance to instance.

Conflating "easily made" plus "digital" as "low quality" is another stumbling block; I've heard tons of noise that is released on tape, all analog sources, that were recorded as a one-take jam with no forethought, that sound like shit. Are they better because of the format or the gear? No. Quality is not limited or defined by the input, but by the result. But if YOU don't think that fits YOUR aesthetic, then go for something different and put it out there - then YOU are contributing to the future of noise in a way that YOU feel is valid.

I'm not saying analog noise is better than digital, I'm just saying that anything that can be done easily has greater potential to be done badly. I do admit I have a fondness for physical media and analog equipment, and that's something I hope doesn't go away, which is why I'm trying to stir it into the discussion.

This being said, I very strongly disagree that bandcamp and social media are the only ways younger people can discover noise. This notion that everything should be easily curated and accessible via social media is already extremely pervasive, but that doesn't mean it is or should be an imperative. Like I said before one of the draws to this wide world of noise and experimental sound is the fact that you actually have to hunt for a lot of this stuff. Even if you're hunting around online, you have to actually go and look for artists, releases, contact information, etc. I think participation in any scene requires some amount of research on behalf of the burgeoning participant.

I'm only 2 years older than you, I discovered most of my own listening tastes via videos on youtube, as well as bandcamp, social media, all of that. I don't think it particularly matters how you discover the things you like as long as you're sincere about enjoying them. If anybody takes issue with how you want to listen to music or noise, that's on them. If you wanted to work with someone who turns their nose up at how you want to operate in this scene, then you should reconsider wanting to work with them at all. It should also be said, no label is a public service. Almost everybody running a noise label does it in their free time and therefore they release things they are interested in. Nobody is obligated to work with an artist just because they're new the same way no new artist is obligated to present their work in any specific way. Regardless of what anybody says or what opinions they hold there is NO right or wrong way to do any of this and you should participate in whatever ways you're most comfortable with.

I wasn't saying that bandcamp and social media are the only ways, but they're obviously really big ones. Instagram especially, that's where I learned about noise and still it's the most important platform in my eyes for my purposes at least. I agree about having to look, but I think my remarks about interaction with technology got misconstrued. Like I would be more inclined when I was starting out to look for information on noise on youtube or reddit or digging around on instagram, or even /mu/, but I never thought to look for a blog or a forum or facebook because that's old people shit lol. So it's not about not looking, it's about an evolving idea of where to look I think. That's my best guess at why there's not many zoomers in the forums is all.

Well I'd say that's what the OP was doing, perhaps in a roundabout way. Asking around. Certainly one means at finding shit. Asking. However that is to be defined. In the meantime you'll get the gold, the silver and the dumbass (aka all the crap I've dropped into this topic; you're very welcome!). I approve of the asking around. The next step is the more aggressive form of asking around. With pseudo manifestos and declarations of regality. Mileage will vary.

I suppose what I'm asking is why am I surrounded by a bunch of old fucks haha. But don't you worry, a pseudo manifesto isn't a far cry from the final essay I plastered before your eyes.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

I suppose what I'm asking is why am I surrounded by a bunch of old fucks haha.

That actually might be pretty good podcast fodder. Old fucks vs new breed (or whatever), maybe get one or two reps from each to just go off. Might be innerestin.

Perspective.

[Residual / RT]

Just musing really. I don't disagree about the requirement of knowledge being important, it's absolutely part of what makes it rewarding. I'm just bummed that I don't see more people my age or younger being active in circles like these, you know? I wouldn't have spent half of my saturday trying to create the four page essay above if I didn't care about this stuff, and I'm just trying to reason out and feel around why we don't see as much young activity compared to millennial and middle age groups. I'm sure there's kids out there doing noise shit, but I'm just relaying my experiences and thoughts as someone who's spent the better part of four years learning to navigate the online scene.

Honestly I think it's because everything is available on the internet. Noise had a sort of mystique to it back when I started in the early 2000's, I didn't find any message boards and wasn't really in contact with anyone else into noise at the time. I just stumbled upon japanese noise thru noise rock and heavy psych bands, as well as Muslimgauze and old industrial and it was so unlike anything I'd heard that I got immediately hooked. I didn't really find the "scene" until years later.

Now, you find something online and there's a bunch of hashtags that kind of give you all the right terms to search for and an hour of googling later you have a list of seminal artists, a playlist of all the classics on youtube and maybe this forum in your bookmarks. You can spend an afternoon with that and then move on to the next weird thing the next day. Or, as my 19-year old half brother, you're not into music much at all and just play video games and do sports for fun. That's why I don't think age matters much anymore, people who really get interested trickle in all the time. Noise doesn't really need young folks, us older guys are doing a great job.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

Don't kid yourselves. This topic is a lot bigger than noise, verging into questions of how we interact with and or (re)construct reality. Or at least verging into questions of how we (re)construct reality in real-cum-virtual space, as if there were a dif. (Is there at this point? I'd say hmm.) To what extent is the formal category of [fill in blank] supposed to supplant what you'd "instinctively" suppose it to be? Why bother territory, amiright? But we do bother, are bothering, and continue to bother. As tempting as it is to wrap things up in tidy cul-de-sacs, the messiness always seems to get there first. Forums are good for that, says me.

[murmur]

I suppose what I'm asking is why am I surrounded by a bunch of old fucks haha.

I wonder if this feeling has to do with the lack of people doing it at all. I'm only a few years older than you and am one of the youngest people making noise where I am (as far as I know), but that's of maybe 7 people. Given how few people are into this stuff generally, I don't find it that surprising that few young people are into it.

I think that noise has a bigger potential audience than its current one, but reaching them in a way that communicates what this is all about is another question, at least beyond word-of-mouth.

[shrouded.in.antiquity]

Like I would be more inclined when I was starting out to look for information on noise on youtube or reddit or digging around on instagram, or even /mu/, but I never thought to look for a blog or a forum or facebook because that's old people shit lol. So it's not about not looking, it's about an evolving idea of where to look I think. That's my best guess at why there's not many zoomers in the forums is all.

Well you did make it to the "old people shit" eventually, so this forum and a lot of the other resources are there to be found. I think that a lot of young people are so used to having a newsfeed curate all of their content for them that this notion of looking beyond it at all has become somehow strange or radical. Have you tried connecting with people on discord? There are music and noise servers there with a lot of younger folks. I'm curious to know though, if you think that using something like instagram is better for connecting with people you want to talk to then why aren't you just using that?

I wonder if this feeling has to do with the lack of people doing it at all.

This really hits the nail on the head.

[Joie de la Blumpy]

if you think that using something like instagram is better for connecting with people you want to talk to then why aren't you just using that?

The question is never why, but why not.

[adult human]

Most of what I've read in this thread brings back memories of similar things I read in the glory days of Troniks and all the other forums. Then it was forums and noise moving onto the internet that represented instantaneous access to information that young people of the time understood and older people did not. There was certainly plenty of critique about what this meant for noise. Even just being able to find out details of bands through websites that would by today's standards seem totally scant was, to some, such a cause for disappointment and concern - a removal, I suppose, of an esoteric oral tradition that encapsulated what some of those older people at that time would have come up with and felt used to. Kids back then didn't know shit about having to WORK for their noise by catalogues and waiting for months for a tape to arrive and so on, kids today don't know about having to dig about for lame old defunct internet technologies!

Moving into a higher view of all this I wonder if it isn't quite significant that RRRon - someone who really fucked around in all this shit before most others - was a notable adopter of that balanced view whereby the old days were great but so could be the new - you're stuck with what's happening now and you can complain about things changing or you can stick your nose in and try to sniff out the young talent and support what they do. At least publicly, his stated view was that noise will always change with the times but the main thing is that real freaks afflicted with this disease will find each other regardless of the tools they use to do so. It's the nature of life and its normal. Maybe when you've a few more years on some of these other people and have seen things come and go a few more times you don't worry about it so much. We're all destined for a life of slow realisations that amazing things have come and gone without us really having thought to pay as much attention to them as we wished we had. I think most stories of any cultural activity that tell you the participants knew they were stuck into a treasure trove whilst they were still plundering from it are probably incomplete accounts of all the components at play.

[Streetcleaner2]

i’m 25 turning 26 in a few days . i don’t think i’d be into noise as much as i am if it was plastered allover instagram etc i very much enjoy the forums and old school route of discovering music . it makes it feel that much more genuine . i think instagram is great for labels and artists who want to network with each other , i grew up lugging around vhs movies and walkmans so even the formats of listening make it that much of a different experience as opposed to the highly available digital streams . i don’t even stream music anymore as i used to . i like that you have to seek out the technology and knowledge of all this and i wouldn’t want it any other way , but i do love what oskar at white centipede noise is doing on youtube it gives a lot of context for anyone trying to get into noise as well as sets up a foundation that noise may have not had before in the digital realm . i also do like the youtube channels who post old tape rips of noise from other countries that maybe would not have been heard for someone under 30 otherwise . i think forums are essential and there is actually a lot of 20 something year olds doing noise i myself for one and perhaps your not looking hard enough . sure it’s not common to meet young people into noise but i’ve come across a few in real life just by talking about noise or industrial influences . maybe get out of your bubble more

[Streetcleaner2]

also on a second note i think we should stick to the old ways as much as possible i love the idea of mail trading as it reminds me of a time when wheatpaste artists would trade handmade screen printed designs stickers /posters etc in the mail and that’s probably the closest reference i have to mail trading in an underground scene , i’ve come across a few young people still doing tape trades online as well . there’s a big noise scene in mexico and the states full of 20 something year olds . just keep looking .